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Thread: Finland 'finds Patriot missiles' on China-bound ship

  1. #11
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    Re: Finland 'finds Patriot missiles' on China-bound ship

    Quote Originally Posted by Samhain View Post
    Seriously? You think that a ship carrying illegal cargo, listed under falsified pretenses, is going to actually put on the manifest where they are going?

    Its not like the damn ship is on auto-pilot and will only go where the manifest says its going. Geez.

    Like Tashah stated, its either a sponsored covert operation or smuggling, both of which would never put in plain terms what its really for.
    My thoughts as well. Thanks Tashah and Samhain for stating this more clearly than I did.

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    Re: Finland 'finds Patriot missiles' on China-bound ship

    Seems strange a secret German transfer of military hardware to China would be outed by the Finns, fellow EU members.

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    Re: Finland 'finds Patriot missiles' on China-bound ship

    Quote Originally Posted by Samhain View Post
    Seriously? You think that a ship carrying illegal cargo, listed under falsified pretenses, is going to actually put on the manifest where they are going? Its not like the damn ship is on auto-pilot and will only go where the manifest says its going. Geez.
    It could of course be that way, but it doesn't have to be.

    Customs inspections are somewhat relaxed at many ports. Smugglers oftentimes nest illicit containers in the midst of legitimate cargo. If this is the modality, then the least suspicious way to offload would be to do it en-mass rather than moving everything to uncover the illicit containers. If most/all of the legitimate cargo was genuinely destined for China, then logic dictates that China is also where the Patriots would be offloaded. If no one is suspicious about the cargo manifest, there is then no compelling reason to falsify the destination. Doing so would create two exposure points (manifest/destination) rather than a singular exposure point (manifest).

    At any rate, if I was a customs inspector, the Fireworks denoted in the manifest as earmarked for China would have drawn my attention. China is a huge manufacturer and exporter of pyrotechnics. It would similar to seeing a manifest with containers of Rice earmarked for China.

    Makes a girl go... hmmm.

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    Re: Finland 'finds Patriot missiles' on China-bound ship

    Quote Originally Posted by Tashah View Post
    It could of course be that way, but it doesn't have to be.

    Customs inspections are somewhat relaxed at many ports. Smugglers oftentimes nest illicit containers in the midst of legitimate cargo. If this is the modality, then the least suspicious way to offload would be to do it en-mass rather than moving everything to uncover the illicit containers. If most/all of the legitimate cargo was genuinely destined for China, then logic dictates that China is also where the Patriots would be offloaded. If no one is suspicious about the cargo manifest, there is then no compelling reason to falsify the destination. Doing so would create two exposure points (manifest/destination) rather than a singular exposure point (manifest).

    At any rate, if I was a customs inspector, the Fireworks denoted in the manifest as earmarked for China would have drawn my attention. China is a huge manufacturer and exporter of pyrotechnics. It would similar to seeing a manifest with containers of Rice earmarked for China.

    Makes a girl go... hmmm.

    yeah, or tea.....
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    Re: Finland 'finds Patriot missiles' on China-bound ship

    Quote Originally Posted by Ockham View Post
    A gun runner gets access to patriot missiles that are government only issue and highly classified? Not only does he / she get access but has the clearance to move them, get licenses and authority to get them on a ship and then bribe a multitude of people to mis-label them, lie about it on a ships manifest which is also government reviewed / controlled, and ship it to China?


    This one stinks from here to Munich. On an aside, China's smart - why build a better mousetrap when they can steal the existing one, reverse engineer it for a fraction of the cost and export it for big bucks - all the while gaining economic and military equality for the dumb asses in the U.S. who let our technology out willy-nilly to all of our "friends and allies". It's this kind of stuff that makes Ron Paul's views LESS extreme.
    Gee Ockham. I agree with you 100%

    Has that ever happened before?



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    Re: Finland 'finds Patriot missiles' on China-bound ship

    Quote Originally Posted by Ben K. View Post
    Seems strange a secret German transfer of military hardware to China would be outed by the Finns, fellow EU members.
    Or why they would feel the need to cover it up considering that there is no embargo on a European level.

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    Re: Finland 'finds Patriot missiles' on China-bound ship

    Quote Originally Posted by Ben K. View Post
    Seems strange a secret German transfer of military hardware to China would be outed by the Finns, fellow EU members.
    I don't think so. I suspect that the authorities were onto this one for some time. They let it go until they felt they had ID'd everyone who was a part of it, then moved in. This was not a "look what I found" bust. And they won't tell us all the details ........... ever.

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    Re: Finland 'finds Patriot missiles' on China-bound ship

    Quote Originally Posted by coolwalker View Post
    Some gun-runner is just trying to make a buck. Coming from Germany though...that is an interesting fact. Let's see where that leads.
    Most likely, to the chagrin of our resident conspiracy theorists. Germany uses the Patriot system. So does Taiwan, Egypt, Germany, Greece, Israel, Japan, Kuwait, the Netherlands, Saudi Arabia, United Arab Emirates, Jordan and Spain. South Korea uses 2nd hand Patriots purchased from -- drum roll, please -- Germany (see MIM-104 Patriot - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia ).

    However, some additional facts for, again, our resident Sherlock Holmes':

    1. The ship's last port was Germany. This does not mean the so-called Patriots were loaded in Germany. Ships generally do not completely empty out or completely load at at each port they visit -- some cargo may ride for several ports before hitting its destination.

    2. The Patriots are "so-called" -- note the terminology of the story: "what were described as 69 Patriot anti-missile missiles". The author (or editor) of the story is leaving some wiggle room as to what the missiles actually are.

    3. Referring to #1, the fact that the next port in the ship's rotation was Shanghai also means nothing -- the cargo could have easily been intended for another port. Also, a non-stop trip from Finland to Shanghai would be rather unusual for the typical voyage (one would think that there would be profitable intermediate stops along the way.

    4. Missiles alone would be of no use if one did not also have the launchers and guidance control systems (computers/radars), even for reverse engineering (I would wager). The sum total of the system (especially the launchers) is may not be something that would generally fit in your basic shipping container.

    It is of course odd that the cargo was mis-manifested (improperly described). The plot thickens here -- the ship's cargo manifest should state where the 'missles/fireworks' were loaded, and what port they are bound for. We are not getting the full story in the linked report (of course, the BBC may not have that information, but I would hope they at least pressed for it). Overall, amateur reporting IMHO.

    Summary, based on info to date, too little info to formulate any type of opinion at all.

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    Re: Finland 'finds Patriot missiles' on China-bound ship

    I wonder. The USA and Russia are the world's largest arms supplier. Our weapons corporations don't make money if they can't sell product. The Patriot was new technology during Gulf War One. You have to sell while your product is "hot." I suspect this whole operation is blessed by top US decision makers. By the way, what year was Gulf War One and how long is technology "new?"

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    Re: Finland 'finds Patriot missiles' on China-bound ship

    Quote Originally Posted by Karl View Post
    Most likely, to the chagrin of our resident conspiracy theorists. Germany uses the Patriot system. So does Taiwan, Egypt, Germany, Greece, Israel, Japan, Kuwait, the Netherlands, Saudi Arabia, United Arab Emirates, Jordan and Spain. South Korea uses 2nd hand Patriots purchased from -- drum roll, please -- Germany (see MIM-104 Patriot - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia ).

    However, some additional facts for, again, our resident Sherlock Holmes':

    1. The ship's last port was Germany. This does not mean the so-called Patriots were loaded in Germany. Ships generally do not completely empty out or completely load at at each port they visit -- some cargo may ride for several ports before hitting its destination.

    2. The Patriots are "so-called" -- note the terminology of the story: "what were described as 69 Patriot anti-missile missiles". The author (or editor) of the story is leaving some wiggle room as to what the missiles actually are.

    3. Referring to #1, the fact that the next port in the ship's rotation was Shanghai also means nothing -- the cargo could have easily been intended for another port. Also, a non-stop trip from Finland to Shanghai would be rather unusual for the typical voyage (one would think that there would be profitable intermediate stops along the way.

    4. Missiles alone would be of no use if one did not also have the launchers and guidance control systems (computers/radars), even for reverse engineering (I would wager). The sum total of the system (especially the launchers) is may not be something that would generally fit in your basic shipping container.

    It is of course odd that the cargo was mis-manifested (improperly described). The plot thickens here -- the ship's cargo manifest should state where the 'missles/fireworks' were loaded, and what port they are bound for. We are not getting the full story in the linked report (of course, the BBC may not have that information, but I would hope they at least pressed for it). Overall, amateur reporting IMHO.

    Summary, based on info to date, too little info to formulate any type of opinion at all.
    Is there any clue as to the other ports the ship docked?
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