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8 US soldiers charged in death of fellow GI

liblady

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this is so terribly sad.........and here's are my questions:

does the military institution breed this kind of pack behavior, and should we start to think about more in depth psychological testing and higher stanards for entrance into the military?

Eight U.S. soldiers have been charged in the October death of 19-year-old Private Danny Chen, who was found shot to death in a guard tower in Afghanistan. It was first thought that Chen may have commited suicide.


U.S. News - 8 US soldiers charged in death of fellow GI

and you're right, we don't know the facts. but the military does, and they've deemed this to be negligent homicide/involuntary manslaughter.
 
Sounds like the result of a severe failure in leadership and unit cohesion. If these guys are found guilty, then the 1LT should be stripped of his commission and all the noncoms should be busted down to private.
 
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this is so terribly sad.........and here's are my questions:

does the military institution breed this kind of pack behavior, and should we start to think about more in depth psychological testing and higher stanards for entrance into the military?




U.S. News - 8 US soldiers charged in death of fellow GI

and you're right, we don't know the facts. but the military does, and they've deemed this to be negligent homicide/involuntary manslaughter.

They'll probably go under trial in a military court.
At least in South Korea and probably most countries around the world, recruits and conscripts go under heavy psychological testing and training before they enter the military. Considering the high-pressure work and environment, even the toughest can collapse easily
 
They'll probably go under trial in a military court.
At least in South Korea and probably most countries around the world, recruits and conscripts go under heavy psychological testing and training before they enter the military. Considering the high-pressure work and environment, even the toughest can collapse easily

I remember taking a test, but I don't remember any "heavy psychological testing" for getting into the US Army. There were tests though. One was signing my name...my recruiter said I did real good. :)
 
Sounds like the result of a severe failure in leadership and unit cohesion. If these guys are found guilty, then the 1LT should be stripped of his commission and all the noncoms should be busted down to private.

jail time.
 
I remember taking a test, but I don't remember any "heavy psychological testing" for getting into the US Army. There were tests though. One was signing my name...my recruiter said I did real good. :)

Correct me if I'm wrong but they do a battery of such tests at MEPS. I might be off, but there's definitely some sort of psych eval at some point in the enlistment process.
 
I remember taking a test, but I don't remember any "heavy psychological testing" for getting into the US Army. There were tests though. One was signing my name...my recruiter said I did real good. :)

exactly the problem.
 
I remember taking a test, but I don't remember any "heavy psychological testing" for getting into the US Army. There were tests though. One was signing my name...my recruiter said I did real good. :)

I know, if there was ever a test, you could not have gotten in there.
Just kidding. Seriously, this is a bit shocking. Didn't you get at least some psychological training once you got there?
 
exactly the problem.

I don't think psychological testing (or lack thereof) is the problem here, given what little we know about the situation. Most people who pass recruit training are already physically and psychologically tougher than 90% of the rest of the population.

The same thing could have happened in any college fraternity across America. The difference is that officers and noncoms are supposed to watch out for this **** and deal with it as soon as possible, rather than neglecting or even perpetrating it.
 
I don't think psychological testing (or lack thereof) is the problem here, given what little we know about the situation. Most people who pass recruit training are already physically and psychologically tougher than 90% of the rest of the population.

The same thing could have happened in any college fraternity across America. The difference is that Sergeants and Lieutenants are supposed to watch out for this **** and deal with it as soon as possible, rather than neglecting or even perpetrating it.

The problems is that continued training and deployment makes the fatigue worse. I remember an Army shooting incident about 6 months ago. A Marine killed 2 or 3 people, and his training and performance was very remarkable from what I remember in the news. Even the seemingly invincible sooner or later breaks down
 
The problems is that continued training and deployment makes the fatigue worse. I remember an Army shooting incident about 6 months ago. A Marine killed 2 or 3 people, and his training and performance was very remarkable from what I remember in the news. Even the seemingly invincible sooner or later breaks down

I don't think that's what happened here. This seems to be an instance of bullying/hazing in a military setting gone too damn far.
 
I know, if there was ever a test, you could not have gotten in there.
Just kidding. Seriously, this is a bit shocking. Didn't you get at least some psychological training once you got there?
Funny that in a thread about people mocking a soldier, you did just that. Oh...but it was "in funny"

Only point being that it happens ALL THE TIME and across the board. I would kind like to actually know what happened BEFORE we convene the firing squad.
 
this is so terribly sad.........and here's are my questions:

does the military institution breed this kind of pack behavior, and should we start to think about more in depth psychological testing and higher stanards for entrance into the military?




U.S. News - 8 US soldiers charged in death of fellow GI

and you're right, we don't know the facts. but the military does, and they've deemed this to be negligent homicide/involuntary manslaughter.

If people are interested here are links to the UCMJ (Uniform Code of Military Justice) under which they're charged - all are punitive articles:
Article 92: dereliction of duty, violation of a lawful general regulation
Article 93: maltreatment
Article 107: making a false official statement.
Article 108: destruction of military property
Article 119: involuntary manslaughter
Article 128: assault consummated by battery, assault
Article 134: negligent homicide, reckless endangerment, communicating a threat.

RE pack mentality? Yes: when it's good it's called unit cohesion among other things and a strong military unit cannot function without it. It is essential: the support and connection betwen soldiers. However - in this case - it's obvious that they cut him out of this involvement and care-circle and ganged up on him likely using him as a whipping boy for all their issues.

I'm wondering what happened in the end: did he finally stand up for himself and they retaliated? Who did he go to for help - if anyone? And what was their response, if any?
 
I don't think psychological testing (or lack thereof) is the problem here, given what little we know about the situation. Most people who pass recruit training are already physically and psychologically tougher than 90% of the rest of the population.

The same thing could have happened in any college fraternity across America. The difference is that officers and noncoms are supposed to watch out for this **** and deal with it as soon as possible, rather than neglecting or even perpetrating it.

no. they may be psychologically tough, but sociopaths can be psychologically tough as well. being tough doesn't make one fit for duty. also, i don't like to compare our military, the world's finest, to a college fraternity. soldiers are supposed to be disciplined and to stand for something. adults who participate in this kind of behavior are disgusting.
 
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I don't think that's what happened here. This seems to be an instance of bullying/hazing in a military setting gone too damn far.

I know, I was just making an example of how even the ones that seems to be the most qualified can break down
 
no. they may be psychologically tough, but scoiopaths can be psychologically tough as well. being tough doesn't make one fit for duty. also, i don't like to compare our military, the world's finest, to a college fraternity. soldiers are supposed to be disciplined and to stand for something.

Doesn't matter. . .

They can be squared away, perfect and absolutely gentlemen while in garrison. They can be of complete sane mind and sound body while on stoop. But they were in garrison or on stoop: they were deployed.

Back here there are paths to take, people to go to, interventions and resources - help for all, support for all.

But once you deploy that's all gone. They try their best to prevent people with known issues from going over - but once there counless men and women develop problems when they didn't use to have any. So no amount of pre-testing and psych evaluations when entering in would prevent issues like this from happening.

So how do you prevent this stuff? 1) Keep channels open for complaints and support - and investigate often. 2) Follow up and punish accordingly.

What's complicated is that being in a military theater acts as a deterrent to offering help and support - they really have ot be mature and handle their own issues for a while which just doesn't always work out well.
 
Sounds like the result of a severe failure in leadership and unit cohesion. If these guys are found guilty, then the 1LT should be stripped of his commission and all the noncoms should be busted down to private.

....and thrown in jail for awhile, yes?
 
I don't think that's what happened here. This seems to be an instance of bullying/hazing in a military setting gone too damn far.

Yeah....murder tends to be one of those lines, huh. I'm not sure this case was bullying/hazing. It may have been outright murder.
 
Doesn't matter. . .

They can be squared away, perfect and absolutely gentlemen while in garrison. They can be of complete sane mind and sound body while on stoop. But they were in garrison or on stoop: they were deployed.

Back here there are paths to take, people to go to, interventions and resources - help for all, support for all.

But once you deploy that's all gone. They try their best to prevent people with known issues from going over - but once there counless men and women develop problems when they didn't use to have any. So no amount of pre-testing and psych evaluations when entering in would prevent issues like this from happening.

So how do you prevent this stuff? 1) Keep channels open for complaints and support - and investigate often. 2) Follow up and punish accordingly.

What's complicated is that being in a military theater acts as a deterrent to offering help and support - they really have ot be mature and handle their own issues for a while which just doesn't always work out well.

loosely interpreted, the military system is a paradox. one has to be tough, tough, tough, right? it must be difficult to reconcile that with the fact that one might need psychological help.
 
loosely interpreted, the military system is a paradox. one has to be tough, tough, tough, right? it must be difficult to reconcile that with the fact that one might need psychological help.

Being trained and fit is essential to your function.
The 'tough tough tough, leadership leadership leadership' is a psychological factor to boost an individual's confidence and performance.

You're taking emotional, normal humans and trying to shut off what is emotional and what makes them normal - you're going to have problems, no doubt. Taht's the complexity of war - there's no way to completely stop it. They can only do their best to intervene whenever situations arrise and give support as necessary - punish as necessary.

What's missing from this article is if anyone who could have helped or prevented this from happening knew about it - he told his parents, did he tell anyone else?
 
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Correct me if I'm wrong but they do a battery of such tests at MEPS. I might be off, but there's definitely some sort of psych eval at some point in the enlistment process.

There are tests. It is a multiple choice question. I wouldn't consider it heavy...they were basically the same test you took highschool to determine what job you should have.
 
I know, if there was ever a test, you could not have gotten in there.
Just kidding. Seriously, this is a bit shocking. Didn't you get at least some psychological training once you got there?

There is a bunch of multiple choice question tests. Since I don't have any psychological education, I really can't say that there were none. There were a bunch of tests at MEPS. There was one to tell if I could learn a second language. I am sure there was a psychological test, but I didn't think it was intense. Definitely not memorable. It was 16 years ago though.
 
There are tests. It is a multiple choice question. I wouldn't consider it heavy...they were basically the same test you took highschool to determine what job you should have.

The heavy-duty psych evaluation tests are reserved for those who are doing more intense jobs. . . everyone else gets the generic version that anyone can easily trump. Adn even then: likely they're not administered as often as they should be - cue Hassan.

Being mentally unstable doesn't mean you're stupid - and can't determine whether your thoughts are appropriate or not.

I passed a psych evaluation test when I was a teen - it was 100 questions and asked a lot of 'do you have thoughts of suicide . . . do you have thougths of self harm . . . do you harm yourself'

Do they really think I was about to say yes to any of that? Of course not - I wasn't stupid. I could also tell when they rewrote questions and when they asked slightly different questions to determine if you were trying to fool the test. I'm sure some people don't catch all that - but many of us are well aware of normal VS abnormal behaviors and thoughts and know how to keep it quiet.
 
Being trained and fit is essential to your function.
The 'tough tough tough, leadership leadership leadership' is a psychological factor to boost an individual's confidence and performance.

You're taking emotional, normal humans and trying to shut off what is emotional and what makes them normal - you're going to have problems, no doubt. Taht's the complexity of war - there's no way to completely stop it. They can only do their best to intervene whenever situations arrise and give support as necessary - punish as necessary.

What's missing from this article is if anyone who could have helped or prevented this from happening knew about it - he told his parents, did he tell anyone else?

i'm sure we will find out. however, this is not just a case of bullying.
 
i'm sure we will find out. however, this is not just a case of bullying.

No, it's not. It did begin with bullying most likely - making fun, having a laugh, calling names . . . and escalated. I'm sure there's more to it than that: we're only getting a small part of the whole entire situation here.
 
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