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Thread: 8 US soldiers charged in death of fellow GI

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    Re: 8 US soldiers charged in death of fellow GI

    Quote Originally Posted by Proud South Korean View Post
    The problems is that continued training and deployment makes the fatigue worse. I remember an Army shooting incident about 6 months ago. A Marine killed 2 or 3 people, and his training and performance was very remarkable from what I remember in the news. Even the seemingly invincible sooner or later breaks down
    I don't think that's what happened here. This seems to be an instance of bullying/hazing in a military setting gone too damn far.
    Nobody who wins a war indulges in a bifurcated definition of victory. War is a political act; victory and defeat have meaning only in political terms. A country incapable of achieving its political objectives at an acceptable cost is losing the war, regardless of battlefield events.

    Bifurcating victory (e.g. winning militarily, losing politically) is a useful salve for defeated armies. The "stab in the back" narrative helped take the sting out of failure for German generals after WWI and their American counterparts after Vietnam.

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    Re: 8 US soldiers charged in death of fellow GI

    Quote Originally Posted by Proud South Korean View Post
    I know, if there was ever a test, you could not have gotten in there.
    Just kidding. Seriously, this is a bit shocking. Didn't you get at least some psychological training once you got there?
    Funny that in a thread about people mocking a soldier, you did just that. Oh...but it was "in funny"

    Only point being that it happens ALL THE TIME and across the board. I would kind like to actually know what happened BEFORE we convene the firing squad.

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    Re: 8 US soldiers charged in death of fellow GI

    Quote Originally Posted by liblady View Post
    this is so terribly sad.........and here's are my questions:

    does the military institution breed this kind of pack behavior, and should we start to think about more in depth psychological testing and higher stanards for entrance into the military?




    U.S. News - 8 US soldiers charged in death of fellow GI

    and you're right, we don't know the facts. but the military does, and they've deemed this to be negligent homicide/involuntary manslaughter.
    If people are interested here are links to the UCMJ (Uniform Code of Military Justice) under which they're charged - all are punitive articles:
    Article 92: dereliction of duty, violation of a lawful general regulation
    Article 93: maltreatment
    Article 107: making a false official statement.
    Article 108: destruction of military property
    Article 119: involuntary manslaughter
    Article 128: assault consummated by battery, assault
    Article 134: negligent homicide, reckless endangerment, communicating a threat.

    RE pack mentality? Yes: when it's good it's called unit cohesion among other things and a strong military unit cannot function without it. It is essential: the support and connection betwen soldiers. However - in this case - it's obvious that they cut him out of this involvement and care-circle and ganged up on him likely using him as a whipping boy for all their issues.

    I'm wondering what happened in the end: did he finally stand up for himself and they retaliated? Who did he go to for help - if anyone? And what was their response, if any?
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    Re: 8 US soldiers charged in death of fellow GI

    Quote Originally Posted by StillBallin75 View Post
    I don't think psychological testing (or lack thereof) is the problem here, given what little we know about the situation. Most people who pass recruit training are already physically and psychologically tougher than 90% of the rest of the population.

    The same thing could have happened in any college fraternity across America. The difference is that officers and noncoms are supposed to watch out for this **** and deal with it as soon as possible, rather than neglecting or even perpetrating it.
    no. they may be psychologically tough, but sociopaths can be psychologically tough as well. being tough doesn't make one fit for duty. also, i don't like to compare our military, the world's finest, to a college fraternity. soldiers are supposed to be disciplined and to stand for something. adults who participate in this kind of behavior are disgusting.
    Last edited by liblady; 12-21-11 at 10:50 AM.

    Originally Posted by johnny_rebson:

    These are the same liberals who forgot how Iraq attacked us on 9/11.


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    Re: 8 US soldiers charged in death of fellow GI

    Quote Originally Posted by StillBallin75 View Post
    I don't think that's what happened here. This seems to be an instance of bullying/hazing in a military setting gone too damn far.
    I know, I was just making an example of how even the ones that seems to be the most qualified can break down
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    Re: 8 US soldiers charged in death of fellow GI

    Quote Originally Posted by liblady View Post
    no. they may be psychologically tough, but scoiopaths can be psychologically tough as well. being tough doesn't make one fit for duty. also, i don't like to compare our military, the world's finest, to a college fraternity. soldiers are supposed to be disciplined and to stand for something.
    Doesn't matter. . .

    They can be squared away, perfect and absolutely gentlemen while in garrison. They can be of complete sane mind and sound body while on stoop. But they were in garrison or on stoop: they were deployed.

    Back here there are paths to take, people to go to, interventions and resources - help for all, support for all.

    But once you deploy that's all gone. They try their best to prevent people with known issues from going over - but once there counless men and women develop problems when they didn't use to have any. So no amount of pre-testing and psych evaluations when entering in would prevent issues like this from happening.

    So how do you prevent this stuff? 1) Keep channels open for complaints and support - and investigate often. 2) Follow up and punish accordingly.

    What's complicated is that being in a military theater acts as a deterrent to offering help and support - they really have ot be mature and handle their own issues for a while which just doesn't always work out well.
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    Re: 8 US soldiers charged in death of fellow GI

    Quote Originally Posted by StillBallin75 View Post
    Sounds like the result of a severe failure in leadership and unit cohesion. If these guys are found guilty, then the 1LT should be stripped of his commission and all the noncoms should be busted down to private.
    ....and thrown in jail for awhile, yes?
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

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    Re: 8 US soldiers charged in death of fellow GI

    Quote Originally Posted by StillBallin75 View Post
    I don't think that's what happened here. This seems to be an instance of bullying/hazing in a military setting gone too damn far.
    Yeah....murder tends to be one of those lines, huh. I'm not sure this case was bullying/hazing. It may have been outright murder.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

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    Re: 8 US soldiers charged in death of fellow GI

    Quote Originally Posted by Aunt Spiker View Post
    Doesn't matter. . .

    They can be squared away, perfect and absolutely gentlemen while in garrison. They can be of complete sane mind and sound body while on stoop. But they were in garrison or on stoop: they were deployed.

    Back here there are paths to take, people to go to, interventions and resources - help for all, support for all.

    But once you deploy that's all gone. They try their best to prevent people with known issues from going over - but once there counless men and women develop problems when they didn't use to have any. So no amount of pre-testing and psych evaluations when entering in would prevent issues like this from happening.

    So how do you prevent this stuff? 1) Keep channels open for complaints and support - and investigate often. 2) Follow up and punish accordingly.

    What's complicated is that being in a military theater acts as a deterrent to offering help and support - they really have ot be mature and handle their own issues for a while which just doesn't always work out well.
    loosely interpreted, the military system is a paradox. one has to be tough, tough, tough, right? it must be difficult to reconcile that with the fact that one might need psychological help.

    Originally Posted by johnny_rebson:

    These are the same liberals who forgot how Iraq attacked us on 9/11.


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    Re: 8 US soldiers charged in death of fellow GI

    Quote Originally Posted by liblady View Post
    loosely interpreted, the military system is a paradox. one has to be tough, tough, tough, right? it must be difficult to reconcile that with the fact that one might need psychological help.
    Being trained and fit is essential to your function.
    The 'tough tough tough, leadership leadership leadership' is a psychological factor to boost an individual's confidence and performance.

    You're taking emotional, normal humans and trying to shut off what is emotional and what makes them normal - you're going to have problems, no doubt. Taht's the complexity of war - there's no way to completely stop it. They can only do their best to intervene whenever situations arrise and give support as necessary - punish as necessary.

    What's missing from this article is if anyone who could have helped or prevented this from happening knew about it - he told his parents, did he tell anyone else?
    Last edited by Aunt Spiker; 12-21-11 at 11:12 AM.
    A screaming comes across the sky.
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