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Census shows 1 in 2 people are poor or low-income

So many of you view the shipping of jobs elsewhere as if it were a choice, for many employers.


Let me break this down for you. This is a little truism that ANYONE who has every owned a business either already knew, or learned the hard way, at some point. "You're either growing, or you're dying." In the case of globalism, everyone ELSE is growing, RAPIDLY. India, China, most of Asia, actually....why? Because they have the single greatest resource a business NEEDS...cheap labor. I'm sorry, but we FORCED many manufacturers out of the country, when we decided that assembly line workers required 25+ an hour to do the jobs that many a monkey could handle, just fine. Look at GM. No sooner do they get out from under the crappy labor union contracts and stifling pensions, etc...and baby, they are BACK in business. I call that pretty solid evidence. But I'm wasting my time here, because none of you are going to present a rational counter argument that doesn't rely almost solely on emotional responses (the poor, but raped middle class!!! ), and most of you already know where you stand, and nothing, NOTHING, is going to sway you, no matter what sort of proof or evidence could be tossed into your faces.

Lets expand on your truism a little and put things in proper prospective the Chinese are not living up to the trade agreements that allow them to export items from China to America, the Chinese government sudsidises Chinese companies keeping them competitive, China manipulates currency,Imports from China see a 2 to 3% tariff while American exports to China see a 30 to 40% tariff. American taxpayers subsidize the move of American companies to China.

Policy Solutions to Shipping Jobs Overseas

Remove Incentives to Ship Jobs Overseas
Taxes: Current law allows companies to defer paying taxes on their overseas income indefinitely while deducting many of the expenses associated with moving offshore – this provides a double subsidy to U.S. companies that ship work overseas, effectively penalizing those companies that keep jobs in the U.S. Ending overseas tax breaks would generate an additional $7 to 12 billion a year in tax revenue and eliminate the perverse incentive to move work abroad to avoid paying taxes.
Public Contracts and Subsidies: Many companies that ship work overseas receive billions of dollars worth of government procurement contracts, subsidies and state and local tax abatements. These taxpayer-financed benefits usually come with very few strings attached, allowing companies to skim additional profits by performing publicly funded work overseas. Laws at the local, state and federal level should be reformed to ensure our taxpayer dollars are not subsidizing the destruction of American jobs.
Currency: A number of U.S. trading partners – China in particular – manipulate the value of their currency relative to the dollar to give their exports to the U.S. an artificial cost advantage, while making American products more expensive. This puts American producers and workers at an impossible cost disadvantage, effectively shutting them out of export markets and undermining their competitiveness at home. The U.S. must take immediate and aggressive action to ensure that the dollar is appropriately valued and withdraw trade benefits from countries that insist on manipulating their currency to unfair advantage, in violation of international trade rules.
Trade Laws: Domestic trade laws enable the government to redress unfair trade practices that give an illegitimate advantage to overseas production. These laws were intended to provide the first line of defense for American producers and workers, yet they are very poorly enforced. The World Trade Organization has weakened our ability to use these laws, and on-going trade negotiations may undermine these laws even further. We must vigorously enforce our domestic trade laws, defend them from challenge, and work to strengthen them in the future.
Trade Agreements: Trade deals such as the North American Free Trade Agreement (NAFTA) create new rights, but no responsibilities, for companies that ship jobs overseas. NAFTA contains strong legal protections for companies investing abroad and guaranteed access for their products into the U.S. market. But NAFTA provides no comparable protections for the rights of workers and the environment, allowing companies to escape their international obligations by shipping work overseas. We must fundamentally reform flawed trade rules to hold companies accountable for respecting workers’ rights no matter where they produce.

It's a pure cop out of responsibility to blame a union for a contract negotiated with management, management controls the purse strings and no one is holding a gun to thier head during negotiations. Comparing an American worker to a monkey speaks volumes about you. American companies manufacturing vehicles did not upgrade thier plants, did not put out a product that was competitive with foreign manufacturers.

Given a level playing field the American workers are the best in the world
 
It wasn't meant to. It was to counter the idea that prices weren't up.

So you've abandoned your previous claim that prices were up due to QE. That's cool.
 
Not really. When my kids were younger, we did it on much less.

J-mac

Sent from my PC36100 using Tapatalk

I think I've heard this bit before -

Back in my day, "when my kids were younger"..................

 
... Let me break this down for you. This is a little truism that ANYONE who has every owned a business either already knew, or learned the hard way, at some point. "You're either growing, or you're dying." ...
Care to apply this supposed "truism" to worker's wages? It seems you are suggesting that for those in the working class... it translates to "if you are not willing to accept lower wages, you are driving yourself out of employment." This definitely seems to be the case, except for executive salaries and investor compensation.
 
the shareholders own them

that includes union pension plans among others

Those thousands or tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands of shareholders DO NOT make the daily decisions of running those businesses and you darn well know that.
 
So many of you view the shipping of jobs elsewhere as if it were a choice, for many employers.


Let me break this down for you. This is a little truism that ANYONE who has every owned a business either already knew, or learned the hard way, at some point. "You're either growing, or you're dying." In the case of globalism, everyone ELSE is growing, RAPIDLY. India, China, most of Asia, actually....why? Because they have the single greatest resource a business NEEDS...cheap labor. I'm sorry, but we FORCED many manufacturers out of the country, when we decided that assembly line workers required 25+ an hour to do the jobs that many a monkey could handle, just fine. Look at GM. No sooner do they get out from under the crappy labor union contracts and stifling pensions, etc...and baby, they are BACK in business. I call that pretty solid evidence. But I'm wasting my time here, because none of you are going to present a rational counter argument that doesn't rely almost solely on emotional responses (the poor, but raped middle class!!! ), and most of you already know where you stand, and nothing, NOTHING, is going to sway you, no matter what sort of proof or evidence could be tossed into your faces.

How are we doing in that race to the bottom?

Are you personally running in that race to the bottom or are you just on the sidelines cheering on the other participants in the drive for third world living conditions and ages and then you will go home to your protected and guarded enclave and pontificate about the danger of labor unions?
 
Does anyone really believe that 1/2 of the US population is poor?
 
Does anyone really believe that 1/2 of the US population is poor?

For people in a very advanced economy, yes, I believe that a very high proportion of the US population are poor, because I read honest capitalist papers like the Economist. No, they are not as poor as the people in some the places the system exploits, but nor were they before leaving their own countries for money, were they? It is a choice, living in an extremely unequal society in the hope of getting rich, and I'd say that except to the eye of faith that hope is scarcely now visible.
 
just who the heck do you think it is who owns those factories and sits on the board which makes those decisions?:doh

Is its that easy perhaps you should open a factory and sit on a board of directors rather than wasting your time on a message board.
 
So the picture is now perfectly clear you support the raping of the poor and middle class of America, You support the advantages that the Chinese have over Americans, you support the bills that make it easier for Americans to lose jobs as long as it lines the pockets of those with enough money to invest in those corporations.

How long do you think it will be before the Chinese nationalize foreign manufacturing and call in thier markers? Can you speak chinese?

Do you make it a point to only buy from companies that do 100% of their work in america and not out source? Or do you only deem that the rich and the government take steps to fix this issue and you hold no personal responsability at all and should be absolutely free to indulge in the benefits of that which you rail against until such point that someone ELSE actually deals with the problem other than just bitching about it?
 
No rational person does.
"About 97.3 million Americans fall into a low-income category, commonly defined as those earning between 100 and 199 percent of the poverty level, based on a new supplemental measure by the Census Bureau that is designed to provide a fuller picture of poverty. Together with the 49.1 million who fall below the poverty line and are counted as poor, they number 146.4 million, or 48 percent of the U.S. population. That's up by 4 million from 2009, the earliest numbers for the newly developed poverty gauge."

From the article. By renaming what used to be considered lower-middle class with low-income, we have effectively split the middle class. I accept that this new "class" has grown in a period of recession, high unemployment and Obama, but what we have here is trying to convince one third of the US population that the are no longer middle class but are now considered low income. I do not recall if there was a term other than lower-middle class before it was redefined in 2009.

Obviously, this is a way of taking people who are not poor and labeling them 'low income' and then using a 'poor/low income' association to inflate numbers. Many people either don't want to or intellectually can't make the distinction.
 
Lets expand on your truism a little and put things in proper prospective the Chinese are not living up to the trade agreements that allow them to export items from China to America, the Chinese government sudsidises Chinese companies keeping them competitive, China manipulates currency,Imports from China see a 2 to 3% tariff while American exports to China see a 30 to 40% tariff. American taxpayers subsidize the move of American companies to China.

Romney intends to change that. Vote Romney!

It's a pure cop out of responsibility to blame a union for a contract negotiated with management, management controls the purse strings and no one is holding a gun to thier head during negotiations.


In many areas of the world, though perhaps not in yours, unions have the right to shut down the means of production if the owners or theit representatives do now submit to their demands. It's called a "Strike". These "strikes", or the threat of "strikes", have made many of these manufacturing plants, particularly in the auto industry in Detroit, uncompetitive and thus largely unmarketable.

Comparing an American worker to a monkey speaks volumes about you. American companies manufacturing vehicles did not upgrade thier plants, did not put out a product that was competitive with foreign manufacturers.

And now you know why. Union leaders were not thinking long term to the best advantage of their members and, as well, they protected some of their more inept members far too enthusiastically
Given a level playing field the American workers are the best in the world

Yes, given a level playing field. But the Unions made sure these playing fields were not level. That's why Detroit is a ghetto today and right to work states are doing much better.
 
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For people in a very advanced economy, yes, I believe that a very high proportion of the US population are poor, because I read honest capitalist papers like the Economist. No, they are not as poor as the people in some the places the system exploits, but nor were they before leaving their own countries for money, were they? It is a choice, living in an extremely unequal society in the hope of getting rich, and I'd say that except to the eye of faith that hope is scarcely now visible.


So, what kind of system do you envision that would rectify this perceived disparity? Are there no poor, or working poor in the UK? they seem to have all the HC that the article is shilling for...So what's up with that?


j-mac
 
There are a few things the government does have to do.
Yes, a few. And a good number voters have asked, that business has asked for, that corporations have asked for, and paid good money to politicians for. You'd think they wouldn't mind payng for them.
 
Our money is only as good as our government. Currently our government is in the crapper, so our money is worthless (pretty much) and unless you earn more that a quarter mil a year, you too are hurting. Pretty much 1 in 2...maybe even 1 3/4 in 2.
 
I realize it's way off post, but whysoserious are you out of work? I don't know anything about you (you could be disabled, unemployed, a student, etc.). I'm just curious, because $40,000/year ought to be PLENTY for 2 people in Charlotte to live and save money in Charlotte. If you earn anything, the entire "anything" could go towards investing, saving, etc. The caveat being that you shouldn't be buying new cars (car payments) or have hundreds of dollars a month in cell phone bills. If you have huge medical expenses, that's something different.

I just graduated. Looking for a job right now and I have a line on a few.

You are no longer lower-middle class. You are now called low income. Have you considered getting a job since you can't live off your gf's 40K?

That's such a libertarian comment to make. Again, I just graduated and am looking for a job right now. I had a job, but I decided it might be worth it to quit so I could pass a semester ago when I was taking: Calculus IV, Actuary Math 1, Probability and Stat II, and Differential Equations (plus some Risk Management class). Or is that not good enough for you?

****ing libertarians think they know everything about everyone when it comes to money.

This year looks like I'm going to end up making $26k, with a family of 4, no gov assistance.
Just bought a house, don't live pay check to pay check, have savings, investments, am saving for a down payment on a new car.

Not accusing you of, but maybe there is a lot of frivolous spending going on some where.
Then again, maybe Charlotte is more expensive.

At $40k, with just 2 people, I'd be able to fully fund a Roth plus have a lot of disposable income.

You're a boss, man, I don't know how you do it. There is certainly some frivolous spending, and we have a few nice things - for sure. She has a $200 car payment every month and we do have social lives. She has 401k and she is funding it with like 5% of her paycheck or something like that. I just can't imagine how you do it though. Four people on your health plan? Plus rent/mortage? Plus gas, food, utilities, and clothing for the kids. Then any entertainment - and kids almost have to have internet for school these days.

When I lived in a more rural area and my girlfriend was going to school, I made about $28k a year and I supported us. But we were barely skating by on that and rent was pretty cheap ($550 a month). Just to be real, HG, living on $28k for a family of four is not easy, not possible in all areas, and probably not fun no matter where you live.
 
Yeah, kinda like those idiots in Washington DC presently borrowing 40 cents out of every dollar they spend.


(Wait a minute!!! That's almost 50%...!!!! :2party:)

I'm not an economist, but doesn't the government borrow on next to 0% interest though?
 
Do you make it a point to only buy from companies that do 100% of their work in america and not out source?

I look for the made in america label and will pay the extra if there is any, do you?

Or do you only deem that the rich and the government take steps to fix this issue and you hold no personal responsability at all and should be absolutely free to indulge in the benefits of that which you rail against until such point that someone ELSE actually deals with the problem other than just bitching about it?

I certainly am not going to wait for the rich to take steps when they invest in companies that move overseas to take advantage of all of the labor, environmental and tax subsidies and tax breaks they get for relocating

The government is let me see if I have this right,
that government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the earth.
The people to me include all of the people, so our government should be enforcing trade agreements, our people should have an opportunity to come to the plate, when the Chinese pay a 2 to 3 % tariff to import goods into the United States and American products are hit with a 30 to 40% tariff going into China I would say that our government is not supporting the American worker, When our government maintains trade relations with a country that manipulates thier currency then I would say our government is not supporting the American worker.When our government uses tax payer dollars to subsidize the relocation of American manufacting to any foreign country, I would say our government is not supporting the American worker. China subsidises chinese companies allowing them to steal market share making competition impossible for the American worker and our government does what? Nothing!! Now all we need is a why? My answer it's obvious that lobbyist are using thier influence to prevent the government from taking action to protect the people of the United States.

I vote and support representatives that come the closest to supporting my POV and the republican party votes to kill any bill that would even the playing field giving american workers a chance to be competitive
 
I just graduated. Looking for a job right now and I have a line on a few.



That's such a libertarian comment to make. Again, I just graduated and am looking for a job right now. I had a job, but I decided it might be worth it to quit so I could pass a semester ago when I was taking: Calculus IV, Actuary Math 1, Probability and Stat II, and Differential Equations (plus some Risk Management class). Or is that not good enough for you?

****ing libertarians think they know everything about everyone when it comes to money.
I really don't understand what you are complaining about. You are a student so you are making an investment. You made a conscience decision to forgo short-term income in the interests of increasing your chances of financial success in the future. Your choice, and I hope it's a good one. But you need to suck it up instead of whining that for a supposedly short period you are having difficulties living off your your gf's 40K a year.

I find it surprising that people often think that the world owes them an education or a living. Maybe it's not progressive enough of me, but then I really don't give a rat's ass.
 
You're a boss, man, I don't know how you do it. There is certainly some frivolous spending, and we have a few nice things - for sure. She has a $200 car payment every month and we do have social lives. She has 401k and she is funding it with like 5% of her paycheck or something like that. I just can't imagine how you do it though. Four people on your health plan? Plus rent/mortage? Plus gas, food, utilities, and clothing for the kids. Then any entertainment - and kids almost have to have internet for school these days.

When I lived in a more rural area and my girlfriend was going to school, I made about $28k a year and I supported us. But we were barely skating by on that and rent was pretty cheap ($550 a month). Just to be real, HG, living on $28k for a family of four is not easy, not possible in all areas, and probably not fun no matter where you live.

I wasn't easy, at first.
It took a change in thinking to do it.

I'm honestly not skating by.
Like a business, I'm constantly reviewing our expenses looking for ways to save, cut or exchange for less expensive services but with the same or near same quality.
Household finances should be run like a business, which many people seem to forget.

My mortgage is $470, I just pay a rounded $500, no tax exemptions at the moment.
 
Is its that easy perhaps you should open a factory and sit on a board of directors rather than wasting your time on a message board.

Where in my post asking about factor ownership was the issue of ease?

Why do you go into the righties barn and bring out yet another strawman? I know - silly question.
 
In many areas of the world, though perhaps not in yours, unions have the right to shut down the means of production if the owners or theit representatives do now submit to their demands. It's called a "Strike". These "strikes", or the threat of "strikes", have made many of these manufacturing plants, particularly in the auto industry in Detroit, uncompetitive and thus largely unmarketable.



And now you know why. Union leaders were not thinking long term to the best advantage of their members and, as well, they protected some of their more inept members far too enthusiastically


Yes, given a level playing field. But the Unions made sure these playing fields were not level. That's why Detroit is a ghetto today and right to work states are doing much better.

What baloney! I live in southeast Michigan and have done so for over sixty years. Right wingers, corporate shills, toadies and sycophants love picking out Detroit and dissing it as if it is the only thing in this area. Detroit is surrounded by three million people who live in thriving communities that are some of the best places to live in America. There are neighborhoods within Detroit that would surprise you with their loveliness. Unions played a role in building the area -all four million people of it. Unions built the strong middle class in this area and we would be nothing were it not for them.
 
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