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Thread: Census shows 1 in 2 people are poor or low-income

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    Re: Census shows 1 in 2 people are poor or low-income

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    Yeah we have big tax advantages-that's why us in the top one percent earn 22% of the total income yet PAY 40% of the income tax. we pay more income taxes than 90% of the country and we sure don't use more government BENEFITS than those 90%

    Seems to me if we had all the power you claim, we'd be paying between one and 22 percent of the income tax (one being our share of government services, the other being our share of the income)
    That's the effect of the rich getting richer. Even though they're paying at a lower rate, they're paying more over all because ... THEY HAVE ALL THE MONEY!

    In constant dollars, in 1974 the average income of the top .1% was about $1 million dollars. In 2007, it was about $7 million. So of course if you're seven times richer you're going to pay more in taxes, even if your tax rate is half what it was before. But you're going to have that much more left over. The rich whining about paying so much in taxes is like someone whining because his suitcase of gold bullion is soooo heavy. Boo hoo.

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    Re: Census shows 1 in 2 people are poor or low-income

    Alright I read an actual decent article on it and poor is considered under $45k for a family of four which yeah that would be pushing it in quite a few places so that is a bit crazy. What is even more interesting is the bottom earners on average make less than they did back in the 70s while the top earners make more.

    Also while it is true that the rich may pay more in federal income taxes they do not in payroll, state, or local taxes in fact by a percentage of income when combining all of these in most cases someone making $60,000 a year will pay more than someone making $200,000 a year. This is of course not considering any tax advantages either person can benefit from but if a person makes $200k a year in many cases we can assume that person is able to invest money more freely and therefore gets more tax advantages through that.

    Let's use something else as an example. Say a person making $20k gets all of their federal back at the end of the year. That person will inject that money back into the economy therefore, pays sales tax, as well as helps create jobs. This person also will not get their payroll tax back, most cases local, and in most cases will only get a portion of state back. These people also typically use up less resources as a whole than the rich do.
    "We’re going to close the unproductive tax loopholes that allow some of the truly wealthy to avoid paying their fair share. In theory, some of those loopholes were understandable, but in practice they sometimes made it possible for millionaires to pay nothing, while a bus driver was paying ten percent of his salary, and that’s crazy." -Reagan

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    Re: Census shows 1 in 2 people are poor or low-income

    Quote Originally Posted by AdamT View Post
    Yes, I think we've also established that, and we've also established that, IN REALITY, it is only the wealthy who have enough disposable income to earn significant income from capital gains.
    You'll never convince the extreme far right that shill for the rich that the majority of the country has caught on to their investment income shell game, until November that is.
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

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    Re: Census shows 1 in 2 people are poor or low-income

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    So make us understand Turtle. Give us some logical and good reasons why the United States of America should have as its tax policy for all Americans, a preferential rate for long term capital gains that is different that the income tax on normal wages and salary.
    I can think of a couple of reasons offhand.

    1. the money is already taxed at a nominal 35% rate.
    2. we want capital to flow into America as opposed to out of it.
    3. capital is incredibly fungible and
    4. the rest of the modernized world has been undercutting us because they want capital to flow in from us.

    it's not a matter of wanting to favor one set of people over another. it's a matter of wishing to favor America over other nations, and wishing for America to grow.

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    Re: Census shows 1 in 2 people are poor or low-income

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    that is not an honest claim and misrepresents what I have said

    I should keep exactly the same amount of my next dollar as you or anyone else
    How is it not an honest claim for me to say I do not want you to pay any higher rate than anyone else in your income bracket?
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    Re: Census shows 1 in 2 people are poor or low-income

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    I can think of a couple of reasons offhand.

    1. the money is already taxed at a nominal 35% rate.
    2. we want capital to flow into America as opposed to out of it.
    3. capital is incredibly fungible and
    4. the rest of the modernized world has been undercutting us because they want capital to flow in from us.

    it's not a matter of wanting to favor one set of people over another. it's a matter of wishing to favor America over other nations, and wishing for America to grow.
    Actually the money from long term capital gains is not taxed at 35%. It is taxed at 15%.

    The rest of your points are theoretical in nature and you have shown no real world evidence that any of your assertions are actually being helped by capital gains taxes at the current level or that the current level somehow someway achieves what you claim they do.
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    Re: Census shows 1 in 2 people are poor or low-income

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    Actually the money from long term capital gains is not taxed at 35%. It is taxed at 15%.
    i was thinking of dividends there specifically, but the theory remains the same. as the shares are ownership of the business, which in turn pays a nominal 35% rate, that wealth is already being taxed

    The rest of your points are theoretical in nature and you have shown no real world evidence that any of your assertions are actually being helped by capital gains taxes at the current level or that the current level somehow someway achieves what you claim they do.
    theoretical? are you actually arguing that people do not respond to incentives, and that investors are not trying to make money?

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    Re: Census shows 1 in 2 people are poor or low-income

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    i was thinking of dividends there specifically, but the theory remains the same. as the shares are ownership of the business, which in turn pays a nominal 35% rate, that wealth is already being taxed



    theoretical? are you actually arguing that people do not respond to incentives, and that investors are not trying to make money?
    YOu are talking about two different sets of taxpayers, each paying on their own money.

    As to people responding to incentives - I will be glad to look at the evidence if you think it demonstrates this.
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    Re: Census shows 1 in 2 people are poor or low-income

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    YOu are talking about two different sets of taxpayers, each paying on their own money.
    no, i am not. when you purchase shares in a company, you are an owner of the company. when "the company" pays it's taxes, therefore, that is you paying taxes on your profits that were earned by your company.

    As to people responding to incentives - I will be glad to look at the evidence if you think it demonstrates this.
    you don't believe that people who invest money are looking to make money?

    if people don't respond to tax incentives, what the hell have the administrations' tax credits for buying new houses, green cars, etc. been all about?

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    Re: Census shows 1 in 2 people are poor or low-income

    The company paying taxes on its money is one thing. The company is a legal entity and they pay their obligations.
    An individual paying taxes on their money is a different thing. They are a complete different entity and they pay their own personal obligations.

    As to capital gains and your positions, I have stated several times that I am more than willing to examine your actual evidence.
    Last edited by haymarket; 12-30-11 at 08:39 AM.
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