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San Francisco Becomes First U.S. City to Top $10 Minimum Wage

I think this is good. Helps to prevent and reduce a poor class. Businesses can deal with less profits/higher prices, I think a high minimum wage is the way to go.

I agree that this is good, but not for the reasons you outlined. By forcing up the price of low skilled labor, businesses will be "forced" to become less reliant on low skilled labor. As it stands, we have a rather unhealthy addiction to low skilled labor and that's not a good thing!
 
and meanwhile what happens to those low skilled laborers?
 
I agree that this is good, but not for the reasons you outlined. By forcing up the price of low skilled labor, businesses will be "forced" to become less reliant on low skilled labor. As it stands, we have a rather unhealthy addiction to low skilled labor and that's not a good thing!

But what if you don't need anything but low skilled labor.
That too, seems arbitrary.
 
and meanwhile what happens to those low skilled laborers?

They lose their jobs! Hopefully some of them will actually up-skill in the desire to actually make a decent living.
 
But what if you don't need anything but low skilled labor.
That too, seems arbitrary.

Maybe firms that are only in business because of low skill labor should not be in business?
 
Maybe firms that are only in business because of low skill labor should not be in business?

How high of skill do you need to turn a burger at McD's, Burger King, etc?
Guess those business need to have high class master chef's. Can see it now the Golden Arches home of the $30 burger.

As someone else posted. We need a range of skills and a range of laborers. Some skilled and some not so skilled.
 
That too, seems to be an arbitrary value judgement.

Not really. Firms that can only exist with "relativily" low labor costs display a deficiency at the product/service level.

If they are successful, sans legislation, they should be in business.

A company that is successful via paying their employees **** is obviously a company provides little value in production/service. You never hear of a lawyer or an engineer losing their job because of an increasing minimum wage.

Healthy economies need a blend of skill levels.

Blend ≠ heavy reliance.
 
How high of skill do you need to turn a burger at McD's, Burger King, etc?
Guess those business need to have high class master chef's. Can see it now the Golden Arches home of the $30 burger.

If you believe that McD's and Burger King are in business only because they have access to low skilled labor, i have some ocean front property in Montana for sale if you are interested!

As someone else posted. We need a range of skills and a range of laborers. Some skilled and some not so skilled.

And as i already mentioned, we have far too great of a reliance on low skilled labor. A $10 minimum wage does not mean that the total number of employees earning said wage evaporates. As far as i know, McD's operates in Paris France!
 
Not really. Firms that can only exist with "relativily" low labor costs display a deficiency at the product/service level.

Not necessarily, it depends on the specific job.
Janitorial services are not hard to learn, it's a basic skill set that most everyone learns before they become an adult and thus the pay level is generally low.
That doesn't mean we should get rid of janitorial services.


A company that is successful via paying their employees **** is obviously a company provides little value in production/service. You never hear of a lawyer or an engineer losing their job because of an increasing minimum wage.

Again, you're making an arbitrary value judgment of the worth of work, just like the minimum wage.
Lawyers and engineers have a higher, more in demand skill set, that doesn't mean everyone can be lawyers or engineers.
And if they were, the relative value of their pay would go down, from the readily available supply of labor for those specific fields.

(It's also interesting to note that these 2 fields have added barriers to entry, like degree requirements and state certification, which further props up their pay.)

Blend ≠ heavy reliance.

1 business can have a heavy reliance on unskilled labor, while the entire labor market can be blended.
You made an arbitrary value judgment about the value of a firm, based on what they pay their employees, without accounting for the necessity the work and the available supply of labor, for that work.
 
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we already have an underclass. a minimum wage ensures that they remain so. that, after all, was the reason we adopted the minimum wage in the first place.
You're refutations are not too compelling, I'll try to address as much of them as I can.

then you admit that minimum wage laws increase unemployment (ie: reduce the supply of available workers).

given that the first portion of "supply" to be reduced is the most vulnerable among us, how do you justify such a thing?

perish the thought!

that depends entirely on the employee and the nature of the position.
Why would you say the supply of the workers is decreased and also say prices are raised to cover the increased cost of labor? Its either one or the other, either they will be laid off or the business will raise prices. Both reactions will not be in effect doubly.

Employees won't have a choice, they will have to work for whatever they are dictated to work for even if its very low.

in reality, however, these people's labor is already worth a set amount to an employer. when you deny the employer the ability to pay them what they are worth, he is simply not going to pay them at all. The Americans with Disabilities Act would be a prime example - passed in 1992, the ostensible goal was to help the physically or mentally impaired... but because the ADA raised the cost of businesses for hiring such individuals, employment of people with disabilities declined, as employers were unable and unwilling to spend more than an employee was worth.
That's not the same situation. Employers could easily get out of it by hiring other people. With a minimum wage floor you can't get out of it, everyone must be paid the minimum.

actually I think that you are failing to realize how "powerful monopolies" typically fall.

no, it prevents those suppliers from supplying competitors.

dumping supply is one of the more laughable claims. oh - don't get me wrong here - it's been tried. it just also fails.

that is incorrect both historically and economically. free markets tend to destroy monopolies, historically, monopolies that survive require government intervention. and this is precisely because large businesses are always susceptible to innovators, such as small businesses.

wrong. free markets being made up of mutually beneficial trade, what they do is maximize profit for the largest possible number of people, while ensuring that that number of people also steadily goes up.
You are completely wrong about monopolies. Free markets do not maximize profit for the largest number of people, they maximize profit for only a certain segment of people and businesses.

Are you familiar with the Carnegie steel monopoly? That is a classic case of how monopolies work.

I'll give you a similar example. Lets say there's a big car manufacturer A that needs aluminum to make cars. He signs an exclusive contract with aluminum maker B. A sells cars at slightly under cost. Everyone buys the cheapest car. Small companies cannot compete and are put out of business. A then signs exclusive contracts with all the aluminum makers. Now A raises the price, no one can enter the market because all the other aluminum makers are out of business and A has an exclusive contract with all the aluminum makers. Lets say someone did enter the market. A lowers the price of his car again briefly, then raises the price once the other guy is out of business.

Don't forget, there are entry costs which form a barrier for entering the market. In markets with significant entry costs, a monopoly can significantly maintain their dominance.

Anyways, ideally, markets tend towards aggregation because a larger business is inherently more powerful than a smaller business.

that is incorrect both historically and economically. free markets tend to destroy monopolies, historically, monopolies that survive require government intervention. and this is precisely because large businesses are always susceptible to innovators, such as small businesses.
Free markets do not tend to destroy monopolies. The free market is powerful and does produce competition, but it is not the answer to everything. Entry costs are huge barrier for people to enter into the market and is something that larger businesses can exploit. Nowadays we have anti-trust regulation, like no dumping, no price fixing, etc. which maintains a healthy free market that allows competition to be healthy and not dirty.

Also, you haven't addressed price fixing and collusion in an industry. What's to stop the entire industry from colluding? Only regulation does that, not the free market.

except that since the prices of everything have just gone up, that "living" wage isn't as "livable". the working poor are no better off than they were before, and the formerly working poor are now much worse off. They suddenly find themselves with no income, but with the price of necessary goods climbing higher than before.
That's wrong as I explained before. Prices climb only slightly, while the worker's wages have increase dramatically.

that is precisely correct. everyone always forgets that the real "minimum wage" is zero. when you institute a price floor, you simply push everyone below it down to nothing.
Let me get your take on environmental regulation, because that starts at zero too. But I'm sure that we all can agree that we are better off without cadmium and mercury floating around in our rivers, like what might happen in China, and possible poisonous chemicals in baby food.
 
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Not necessarily, it depends on the specific job.
Janitorial services are not hard to learn, it's a basic skill set that most everyone learns before they become an adult and thus the pay level is generally low.
That doesn't mean we should get rid of janitorial services.

I never said that we should get rid of anything (except maybe companies that only exist due to low skilled labor). Janitorial services will still be in demand @ a $10/hr wage.

Again, you're making an arbitrary value judgment of the worth of work, just like the minimum wage.

Not at all. As already stated, McD's stays in business not because we have a low (relatively) minimum wage in the U.S., but because their products they serve are highly valued by our (obese, but that is for another topic) society.

Lawyers and engineers have a higher, more in demand skill set, that doesn't mean everyone can be lawyers or engineers.

Never said everyone can.

1 business can have a heavy reliance on unskilled labor, while the entire labor market can be blended.
You made an arbitrary value judgment about the value of a firm, based on what they pay their employees, without accounting for the necessity the work and the available supply of labor, for that work.

Nope! I made a statement that reflects reality. There is a strong relationship between wages and productivity; marginal profitability increases as wages increase. Holding all else equal, a firm that employs 10 engineers will always be more valuable than a firm that employs 10 "landscape technicians".

edit: firefox ****ed my original response, so this is all im willing to put forth ;)
 
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either your reading comprehension suffers, or you are being deliberately obtuse. he was pointing out that when you raise the minimum wage to $10 an hour, those whose skill sets makes their labor worth less than $10 an hour are no longer employable.

I don't understand this line of reasoning. Lets say a company needs someone to do a very low skill job, like janitorial work. Regardless of whether the minimum wage is $5 or $10, they still need someone to fill that position. I don't see how someone could be priced out of that position.
 
I don't understand this line of reasoning. Lets say a company needs someone to do a very low skill job, like janitorial work. Regardless of whether the minimum wage is $5 or $10, they still need someone to fill that position. I don't see how someone could be priced out of that position.

The worst janitors will surely be priced out of that position; but that is really just a reflection of human capital.
 
that is correct because there is still a high regulatory cost that burdens employers for each American they hire. It is cheaper for the lowest-skill-job employers, therefore, to hire illegal aliens.

What exactly are the regulatory costs to a business that hires an American?
 
I never said that we should get rid of anything (except maybe companies that only exist due to low skilled labor). Janitorial services will still be in demand @ a $10/hr wage.

And some companies will rely on low skill labor because while the labor is necessary, it will generally always be low skilled.
That is just dumb to assume there is a replacement for low skilled labor, when no replacement may exist.

In the case of janitors, Roomba and self sanitizing surfaces have been making strides, but not enough to replace the necessity of their low skilled labor.


Not at all. As already stated, McD's stays in business not because we have a low (relatively) minimum wage in the U.S., but because their products they serve are highly valued by our (obese, but that is for another topic) society.

The labor for the work is low skilled and generally considered transitional, in that people eventually move on to more skillful work.
Although some do not.

Arbitrarily increasing wages to eliminate low skill work won't necessarily make people more skillful, some people just don't have the motivation.
That's why you sometimes find middle age people working at McD's.


Never said everyone can.

There is such a thing as brain glut and also, as long as we have a lifestyle safety net, people don't have to move beyond a minimum skill set.

Nope! I made a statement that reflects reality. There is a strong relationship between wages and productivity; marginal profitability increases as wages increase. Holding all else equal, a firm that employs 10 engineers will always be more valuable than a firm that employs 10 "landscape technicians".

edit: firefox ****ed my original response, so this is all im willing to put forth ;)

Yes engineers are more valuable based on the work they produce, person to person, however that does not mean landscape technicians are valueless.
Landscaping is just an easier field to enter, because the skill set is easier to learn.
If there is a learning break through making engineering just as easy to learn, the relative value of engineers with eventually come on par with that of landscapers.
 
And some companies will rely on low skill labor because while the labor is necessary, it will generally always be low skilled.
That is just dumb to assume there is a replacement for low skilled labor, when no replacement may exist.

Notice how i was clear in my distinction; rely on low skill labor is not the same as "only exist due to low skill labor".

In the case of janitors, Roomba and self sanitizing surfaces have been making strides, but not enough to replace the necessity of their low skilled labor.

I agree!

The labor for the work is low skilled and generally considered transitional, in that people eventually move on to more skillful work.
Although some do not.

Arbitrarily increasing wages to eliminate low skill work won't necessarily make people more skillful, some people just don't have the motivation.
That's why you sometimes find middle age people working at McD's.

I agree. But you cannot deny that increasing the wage floor incentivizes entrepreneurs to become more capital orientated. Back in the day, people used to pump your gas for you when you pulled up to the station. As wages increased, it became too costly to pay a person to pump gas for customers, and we no longer see this type of job for a rather obvious reason (and it is not because wages increased). It provided very little value. Gas station owners soon realized that providing gasoline is not nearly as profitable as retailing convenience items like fountain drinks and condoms. They traded low skilled employees for dink dispensers and retail space.

There is such a thing as brain glut and also, as long as we have a lifestyle safety net, people don't have to move beyond a minimum skill set.

Nonsense! People can and do move beyond a minimum skill set. You are going to have to put forth a better argument to convince me that a highly skilled population is not better than a less highly skilled population.

Yes engineers are more valuable based on the work they produce, person to person, however that does not mean landscape technicians are valueless.

Again, where did i say landscape technicians are valueless?

If there is a learning break through making engineering just as easy to learn, the relative value of engineers with eventually come on par with that of landscapers.

The key is promoting people to want to be engineers. Incentivizing low skilled alternatives in no way promotes up-skilling.
 
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Big deal. So they make 10+ an hour mininum wage. They are no better off...likely WORSE off, than someone making the 7 Dollar an hour minimum wage in, say, SC.


Economics. It's not just for kids on computers in chat forums anymore.
 
Big deal. So they make 10+ an hour mininum wage. They are no better off...likely WORSE off, than someone making the 7 Dollar an hour minimum wage in, say, SC.


Economics. It's not just for kids on computers in chat forums anymore.

indeed. $10 an hour in San Fran..is still a measly $10 an hour in San Fran.
 
I think San Francisco is trying to provide hope for naive young boys who are looking for somewhere to be and just, live, and you know just... be themselves! Mmm mmm!!! San Francisco here I COOOOOOMMMEE!!!

Joking aside, eliminate the GD minimum wage.

Ahem. The federal minimum wage.

Let cities and states do what they want.
 
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Regulations.jpg
What exactly are the regulatory costs to a business that hires an American?

According to the Small Business Administration they are fairly significant, and worse for those who cannot utilize economies of scale as well as larger businesses can.

it's worth noting that this is from 2005, and therefore does not count the regulatory bonanza that has been going on the past few years. nobody knows yet what Obamacare is going to eventually end up costing them.
 
They lose their jobs! Hopefully some of them will actually up-skill in the desire to actually make a decent living.

how will they, given that they are A) likely to be the least educated, B) likely to be the least credit worthy, C) likely to be the least educatable and D) now unable to make up for these things by building work experience?

but at least someone is admitting that this means kicking poor people to the curb.
 
The fact that there's this push to make the "minimum wage" a "living wage" in and of itself is a bit ridiculous. There's no reason why a fry flipper at McDonald's should be able to fully support himself at a comfortable level by just doing that job and living on his own. There's no reason why a 16 year old in his first job at Best Buy hocking CD's needs to be making a "living wage" capable of sustaining himself on his own.

Based on COL and other things, I can't rightly say if a LOCAL minimum wage such as in SanFran now is too high or too low. However, when people start talking about the FEDERAL minimum wage in a way that they are suggesting it should be a "living wage" then I find that to be extremely troubling.
 
how will they, given that they are A) likely to be the least educated, B) likely to be the least credit worthy, C) likely to be the least educatable and D) now unable to make up for these things by building work experience?

but at least someone is admitting that this means kicking poor people to the curb.

The low skill/low income demographic is the most likely to receive federal and state education assistance in the event that they decide to "skill up". Forcing companies to rely on good old fashion ingenuity as opposed to strictly profiting from a cost-plus-pricing business model promotes productivity growth.

The evidence clearly points to dynamic monopsony as a key feature to the low-skill U.S. labor market; therefore increasing the wage floor provides collective bargaining power to the low skilled employee, while enhancing productivity on the employer side.
 
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