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Thread: San Francisco Becomes First U.S. City to Top $10 Minimum Wage

  1. #61
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    Re: San Francisco Becomes First U.S. City to Top $10 Minimum Wage

    Quote Originally Posted by Opteron View Post
    Giving a decent living wage for a decent day's work is immoral? I think anything else is immoral.
    $10 for someone living in SF, is not a living wage.
    The rent and home prices are outrageous.
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
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    Re: San Francisco Becomes First U.S. City to Top $10 Minimum Wage

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    I believe in giving poor people a fair shot at climbing the ladder. putting the bottom rung beyond their ability to jump strikes me as not only bad economic policy, but immoral as well.
    This idea that we'd be flooded with jobs if we got rid of minimum wage is ridiculous. There is no way an American citizen could live off of say Chinese 2 dollar a month salaries (the global price of unskille exportable labor). It would never happen. The cost of living in the US would remain much higher than Chinese cost of living due to the strength of the dollar and the fact most Americans are not earning minimum wage salaries.

    The majority of jobs that are not-exportable (service) are the majority of unskilled labor that we're basically competitive in (due to the fact they can't be exported). That's where minimum wage comes into play and it does equal to some extent higher prices for all...but I think most people agree there should be a basement. There should be a wage aperson earns that at least allows them to survive.

    By no means is minimum wage a cushy salary.
    “Capitalism is the astounding belief that the most wickedest of men will do the most wickedest of things for the greatest good of everyone.” John Maynard Keynes

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    Re: San Francisco Becomes First U.S. City to Top $10 Minimum Wage

    Quote Originally Posted by iliveonramen View Post
    This idea that we'd be flooded with jobs if we got rid of minimum wage is ridiculous. There is no way an American citizen could live off of say Chinese 2 dollar a month salaries (the global price of unskille exportable labor). It would never happen. The cost of living in the US would remain much higher than Chinese cost of living due to the strength of the dollar and the fact most Americans are not earning minimum wage salaries.

    The majority of jobs that are not-exportable (service) are the majority of unskilled labor that we're basically competitive in (due to the fact they can't be exported). That's where minimum wage comes into play and it does equal to some extent higher prices for all...but I think most people agree there should be a basement. There should be a wage aperson earns that at least allows them to survive.

    By no means is minimum wage a cushy salary.
    Minimum wage is an entry level wage.
    Most do not stay at it for very long, the problem is that you're predetermining what the value of work done is worth, without evaluating the individual job.
    So in essence, you're giving a "non contact" security guard a wage increase and someone else who does more difficult work.
    One may deserve a wage increase, while the other may not.

    It's an arbitrary and broad value judgement of the worth of specific work.
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
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    Re: San Francisco Becomes First U.S. City to Top $10 Minimum Wage

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    $10 for someone living in SF, is not a living wage.
    The rent and home prices are outrageous.
    my first full-time job, in 1999...paid $10 an hour.

    that was 12 years ago. how much have prices gone up in twelve years?

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    Re: San Francisco Becomes First U.S. City to Top $10 Minimum Wage

    Quote Originally Posted by Thunder View Post
    my first full-time job, in 1999...paid $10 an hour.

    that was 12 years ago. how much have prices gone up in twelve years?
    My first job, paid $5.15 an hour, I now make much more than that.
    Minimum wage is an entry level paying job, it's for people without any definable skills or skills in the particular job field.
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
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    Re: San Francisco Becomes First U.S. City to Top $10 Minimum Wage

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    You think I should have shot for a minimum wage of $50K a year?

    at what point do you accept that the laws of economics yes apply to people too?
    At what point do you understand that cost of goods has been steadily increasing anyway, regardless of wages?

    Wages need to match cost of goods, since cost of goods are rising disproportionately thanks to corporate greed and outsourcing. The price of fuel is one such example.

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    Re: San Francisco Becomes First U.S. City to Top $10 Minimum Wage

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    Minimum wage is an entry level wage.
    Most do not stay at it for very long, the problem is that you're predetermining what the value of work done is worth, without evaluating the individual job.
    So in essence, you're giving a "non contact" security guard a wage increase and someone else who does more difficult work.
    One may deserve a wage increase, while the other may not.

    It's an arbitrary and broad value judgement of the worth of specific work.
    If by arbitrary it's not set by market values I agree. Minimum wages are determined generally by prices for the necessaties...bread milk etc. It's not entirely arbitrary in the sense someone says "10 bucks.....sounds good".

    I think we've had this argument before Harry over minimum wages. Yes, it's not based on skill level etc. It's based entirely on the cost of necessaties. I would argue that it generally goes up slower than inflation so it doesn't even do a good job with that.

    If it was gotten rid of tomorrow....I'm sure most poeple wouldn't make below minimum wage. At the same time...should anybody realisticlly make less than the federal wage of 7.25 or something an hour?
    “Capitalism is the astounding belief that the most wickedest of men will do the most wickedest of things for the greatest good of everyone.” John Maynard Keynes

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    Re: San Francisco Becomes First U.S. City to Top $10 Minimum Wage

    Quote Originally Posted by Opteron View Post
    No, without a minimum wage you would be guarantee an underclass of workers
    we already have an underclass. a minimum wage ensures that they remain so. that, after all, was the reason we adopted the minimum wage in the first place.

    Supply would dictate a ridiculously low wage
    then you admit that minimum wage laws increase unemployment (ie: reduce the supply of available workers).

    given that the first portion of "supply" to be reduced is the most vulnerable among us, how do you justify such a thing?

    the workers would have to work because they have no alternative
    perish the thought!

    and a group would be overpowered by the rich, because those who have would be at the mercy of those who have for a job. This is not a symmetrical situation here that's what you're neglecting. Those who don't have don't have the ability to hold out for more while those who have can always pass an employee opportunity and wait them out.
    that depends entirely on the employee and the nature of the position.

    in reality, however, these people's labor is already worth a set amount to an employer. when you deny the employer the ability to pay them what they are worth, he is simply not going to pay them at all. The Americans with Disabilities Act would be a prime example - passed in 1992, the ostensible goal was to help the physically or mentally impaired... but because the ADA raised the cost of businesses for hiring such individuals, employment of people with disabilities declined, as employers were unable and unwilling to spend more than an employee was worth.

    You are failing to realize how powerful monopolies work.
    actually I think that you are failing to realize how "powerful monopolies" typically fall.

    The can sign exclusive contracts with suppliers which prevents any other business from entering the market.
    no, it prevents those suppliers from supplying competitors.

    Those suppliers that don't cooperate can be dumped against and put out of business
    dumping supply is one of the more laughable claims. oh - don't get me wrong here - it's been tried. it just also fails.

    Free markets tend to aggregate into monopolies, because ideally, anything a small business can do, a larger business can do more efficiently ideally.
    that is incorrect both historically and economically. free markets tend to destroy monopolies, historically, monopolies that survive require government intervention. and this is precisely because large businesses are always susceptible to innovators, such as small businesses.

    Free markets do not result in the best possible outcome, what they do is maximize profit for a certain business.
    wrong. free markets being made up of mutually beneficial trade, what they do is maximize profit for the largest possible number of people, while ensuring that that number of people also steadily goes up.

    Ok you are completely wrong here because high prices in cities are a result of property demand/demand to be in the city, not labor costs. Ok, I understand you're example, you left one choice out: D) deal with less profit
    profit is not guaranteed, and businesses live on the margins. the vast majority of small businesses already can't maintain that margin, and shut down. when you thin the potential margin by placing on it a drag of higher labor costs, therefore, you increase the percentage of business failures. Businesses are not there to serve as charities, they are there to engage in mutually beneficial trade - trying to change that model to one where business owners pay employees more than they are worth will only break them.

    Most likely businesses will raise prices to recover the cost of labor and what this amounts to is a tax on everybody so that the poorest laborers can make a living wage.
    except that since the prices of everything have just gone up, that "living" wage isn't as "livable". the working poor are no better off than they were before, and the formerly working poor are now much worse off. They suddenly find themselves with no income, but with the price of necessary goods climbing higher than before.

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    Re: San Francisco Becomes First U.S. City to Top $10 Minimum Wage

    Quote Originally Posted by iliveonramen View Post
    If by arbitrary it's not set by market values I agree. Minimum wages are determined generally by prices for the necessaties...bread milk etc. It's not entirely arbitrary in the sense someone says "10 bucks.....sounds good".

    I think we've had this argument before Harry over minimum wages. Yes, it's not based on skill level etc. It's based entirely on the cost of necessaties. I would argue that it generally goes up slower than inflation so it doesn't even do a good job with that.

    If it was gotten rid of tomorrow....I'm sure most poeple wouldn't make below minimum wage. At the same time...should anybody realisticlly make less than the federal wage of 7.25 or something an hour?
    Depends, I'm willing to bet that if there were no minimum wage, that the "stickiness" of wages would be less and there would of been less job loss in the recession.

    Even $7.25 is arbitrary and in some areas, people should be paid less.

    An example, a company needs someone to watch some security monitors in the evening.
    That's all the person is supposed to do during their time at work.
    They hire a retired person, who just wants some extra spending money, even though they're already drawing a pension, SS or have funds to live on.
    In this example, the $10 an hour is too much, I'd argue that $7.25 was too much as well.
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
    —Adam Shepard

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    Re: San Francisco Becomes First U.S. City to Top $10 Minimum Wage

    Quote Originally Posted by Temporal View Post
    At what point do you understand that cost of goods has been steadily increasing anyway, regardless of wages?
    and so the plan is to accelerate the process, but only in specific locales?

    Wages need to match cost of goods, since cost of goods are rising disproportionately thanks to corporate greed and outsourcing.
    wrong. outsourcing (evil corporate greed practice, that) leads to lower prices, which in turn increases the standard of living for our poor.

    The price of fuel is one such example.
    the price of fuel is going up because our government is busy destroying the dollar. and it is staying up because our government is also stupid enough to artificially constrain supply.

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