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Thread: San Francisco Becomes First U.S. City to Top $10 Minimum Wage

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    Re: San Francisco Becomes First U.S. City to Top $10 Minimum Wage

    Quote Originally Posted by Aunt Spiker View Post
    How does it prevent and reduce a poor class?

    The cost of goods, production, living and other expenses is so high that anyone earning min-wage will always be *the* poor - they'll just earn more than *other* poor but it won't be enough.

    It perpetuates a psychological fallacy of security
    Australia has a relatively high minimum wage and it seems to work well. The minimum wage has to be raised comparable to other decent wages, but not too high to not be affordable.

    Australia has $15 an hour minimum wage and is ranked more economically free than the U.S. « Exposing Faux Capitalism

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    Re: San Francisco Becomes First U.S. City to Top $10 Minimum Wage

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    Actually, it's going to make things worse for the working poor, because now, businesses are going to raise qualification standards for entry level positions. Some of those working poor won't be able to meet those standards and instead of having a low paying job, won't have any job at all.
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    Re: San Francisco Becomes First U.S. City to Top $10 Minimum Wage

    no, it doesn't. but let's walk through the prototypical example: Henry Ford famously offered that he paid his workers higher wages so that they could afford to purchase his cars. This was a great advertising technique, but a poor economic one. Because the wages of his workers made up part of the price of the car, and so every time the wages were increased, so was the price of the vehicle.
    It depends on his labor costs per car, how much he increased the costs of labor. You have to remember, his costs per car decreases with every car he builds...unless he has to hire additional workers of if he has to build another factory. I'm pretty sure Henry Ford made good on the deal.
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    Re: San Francisco Becomes First U.S. City to Top $10 Minimum Wage

    Quote Originally Posted by Opteron View Post
    No, without a minimum wage you would be guarantee an underclass of workers. Supply would dictate a ridiculously low wage, the workers would have to work because they have no alternative, and a group would be overpowered by the rich, because those who have would be at the mercy of those who have for a job.

    So pricing this “underclass” out of the job market entirely, depriving them of the opportunity to have any job at all, is an improvement? Not that I agree with your claim about what the situation is with this “underclass”, but even if you are correct, and even if this situation is as bad as you say it is, it is still better than the “solution” that you support. Someone who is part of this alleged “working underclass”, with a job that doesn't pay what you consider to be an adequate “living wage”, is still better off than someone with no job at all.

    In the mean time, by artificially raising the price of labor at the bottom end, what is really being done is to devalue the currency in which these wages are paid, creating inflation that will have much broader impacts on everyone, well outside of the small group that this action proposes to “help”. A minimum wage of $7.50 per hour defines a dollar as having no more value that that of eight (8) minutes of labor from the lowest-grade worker who is going to be allowed to be employed. A minimum wage of $10 per hour lowers this maximum value of a dollar to that of six (6) minutes of labor from the lowest-grade worker who will be allowed to be employed, making the dollar worth 33% less than it was worth before.
    The five great lies of the Left Wrong:
    We can be Godless and free. • “Social justice” through forced redistribution of wealth. • Silencing religious opinions counts as “diversity”. • Freedom without moral and personal responsibility. • Civilization can survive the intentional undermining of the family.

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    Re: San Francisco Becomes First U.S. City to Top $10 Minimum Wage

    Quote Originally Posted by Opteron View Post
    Australia has a relatively high minimum wage and it seems to work well. The minimum wage has to be raised comparable to other decent wages, but not too high to not be affordable.

    Australia has $15 an hour minimum wage and is ranked more economically free than the U.S. « Exposing Faux Capitalism
    Yes - but that doesn't make them not be poor - everyone just earns moor. . . they're still the lower-class as far as stratification goes. I think it's disengenious to suggest otherwise.
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    Re: San Francisco Becomes First U.S. City to Top $10 Minimum Wage

    Quote Originally Posted by Aunt Spiker View Post
    Yes - but that doesn't make them not be poor - everyone just earns moor. . . they're still the lower-class as far as stratification goes. I think it's disengenious to suggest otherwise.
    No, its a more equitable distribution of wages. The poor earn more, everybody does not earn more. Non-poor do not earn more, in fact, the non-poor pay more but the poor earn more.

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    Re: San Francisco Becomes First U.S. City to Top $10 Minimum Wage

    Couple things:

    I lived in San Francisco from 1999-2004. Rents are extremely high BUT that is mostly due to the fact that it is a very beautiful, and desirable city to live in, coupled with the fact that it is on a penninsula, and thus it is naturally bounded and cannot expand.

    The OTHER costs of living were VERY LOW. I live in Chicago now. Living expenses are much cheaper, but everything else seems more expensive, from the cost of public transportation to the cost of food. I used to get cans of Tecate for 50 cents at the corner store in SF and it was awesome. Tacos were 1.50, and they were delicious. That was my experience.

    Please keep my experience in mind when arguing instead of just conjecturing facts.

    I think SF can weather a high minimum wage (it was relatively high when I lived there) and I think its a good thing.

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    Re: San Francisco Becomes First U.S. City to Top $10 Minimum Wage

    Quote Originally Posted by Opteron View Post
    No, its a more equitable distribution of wages. The poor earn more, everybody does not earn more. Non-poor do not earn more, in fact, the non-poor pay more but the poor earn more.
    That's not correct.

    Other "poor" will pay more too, unless they just stop buying stuff.
    Wages and prices are interconnected, assuming that a business owner will just "make less profits" is naive.

    Some business owners are pulling a middle class wage, should one who makes $50k a year take a cut on their profits?
    You guys don't think very far into this.
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    Re: San Francisco Becomes First U.S. City to Top $10 Minimum Wage

    Quote Originally Posted by Temporal View Post
    It's not really that big of a deal. The major cities in Canada average $9-10/hr. I'm surprised San Fran is the first. It should have happened a long time ago. Cost of living has increased a lot but living wages have not.
    I'm also surprised by this. Mostly because I figured New York would have beaten us to the $10 mark by now. SF is expensive, NY is downright insane (cost of living-wise). Also, I agree with the contention that it's probably impossible to afford living in SF if you're making $10/hr.

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    Re: San Francisco Becomes First U.S. City to Top $10 Minimum Wage

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Blaylock View Post
    So pricing this “underclass” out of the job market entirely, depriving them of the opportunity to have any job at all, is an improvement? Not that I agree with your claim about what the situation is with this “underclass”, but even if you are correct, and even if this situation is as bad as you say it is, it is still better than the “solution” that you support. Someone who is part of this alleged “working underclass”, with a job that doesn't pay what you consider to be an adequate “living wage”, is still better off than someone with no job at all.

    In the mean time, by artificially raising the price of labor at the bottom end, what is really being done is to devalue the currency in which these wages are paid, creating inflation that will have much broader impacts on everyone, well outside of the small group that this action proposes to “help”. A minimum wage of $7.50 per hour defines a dollar as having no more value that that of eight (8) minutes of labor from the lowest-grade worker who is going to be allowed to be employed. A minimum wage of $10 per hour lowers this maximum value of a dollar to that of six (6) minutes of labor from the lowest-grade worker who will be allowed to be employed, making the dollar worth 33% less than it was worth before.
    Which way you going with this. On one hand you're saying that the employer will just hire less, then they would charge the same then. On the other hand you're saying that the employer will raise prices but have the same labor amount which costs more? Which one is it? It won't both create inflation and fire workers at the same time, its either one or the other.

    And its not inflation, its a more equitable distribution of wages. Not all goods and services will charge more, only ones that involve low income labor, what we will see is a more equitable distribution of wages as a tax on everybody, which is ok with me.

    By this logic, taxes would create inflation on everybody, because everyone would increase prices on everyone else and we would have runaway hyperinflation, but we don't have that. Even with the taxes we have today, when people raise taxes we don't see hyperinflation result.
    Last edited by Opteron; 12-13-11 at 04:51 PM.

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