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Supreme Court will hear Arizona immigration case

AdamT said:
We're experiencing negative immigration. Illegal immigration is falling. Enforcement and deportations are up. In fact there has been a record number of deportations under Obama.
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We are also having a crappy economy. Which is why illegal immigration is falling. It is also probably why deportations are up. If you were an illegal from France and you have no money and want to get out of this crappy economy what do you think is the easiest and cheapest and safest way to go about it? Yep, thats right, get "caught". You now have a free ticket home.

What do you think will happen when our economy picks back up again?

Besides which, Obama has stopped looking for ALL illegals. He has instead decided to only focus on those illegals which are violent. While it's good that he is going after them...he needs to go after ALL illegals. Not just the violent ones.
 
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Kal'Stang said:
We are also having a crappy economy. Which is why illegal immigration is falling. It is also probably why deportations are up. If you were an illegal from France and you have no money and want to get out of this crappy economy what do you think is the easiest and cheapest and safest way to go about it? Yep, thats right, get "caught". You now have a free ticket home.

What do you think will happen when our economy picks back up again?

Besides which, Obama has stopped looking for ALL illegals. He has instead decided to only focus on those illegals which are violent. While it's good that he is going after them...he needs to go after ALL illegals. Not just the violent ones.
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The economy is certainly responsible for most of the drastic reduction in illegal immigration, but you're mistaken if you think that deportations are people looking for a free ticket home. They are mostly deporting individuals found to have criminal records.

But you do make a good point about it costing money to leave the country. In fact, it costs about $28,000 to deport someone. That means it would cost about $250 billion to deport all of the illegals (not counting the economic and tax benefits they bring). Still sound like a good idea?
 
AdamT said:
The economy is certainly responsible for most of the drastic reduction in illegal immigration, but you're mistaken if you think that deportations are people looking for a free ticket home. They are mostly deporting individuals found to have criminal records.
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Not hard to get a criminal record in the US. Walk up and slap a cop and see how quickly you get a criminal record. ;)

AdamT said:
But you do make a good point about it costing money to leave the country. In fact, it costs about $28,000 to deport someone. That means it would cost about $250 billion to deport all of the illegals (not counting the economic and tax benefits they bring). Still sound like a good idea?
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In the long run yes. Provided our Federal Government started enforceing our laws and made the punishments for buisnesses hiring illegals stricter. Besides, when Obama was first elected what was one of the first things that he signed? A stimulus bill that cost dang near a trillion dollars. I'm pretty sure that 250 billion could be gotten for this.
 
Kal'Stang said:
Not hard to get a criminal record in the US. Walk up and slap a cop and see how quickly you get a criminal record. ;)



In the long run yes. Provided our Federal Government started enforceing our laws and made the punishments for buisnesses hiring illegals stricter. Besides, when Obama was first elected what was one of the first things that he signed? A stimulus bill that cost dang near a trillion dollars. I'm pretty sure that 250 billion could be gotten for this.
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Yeah, that's just what we need. Spend a quarter of a trillion dollars doing something that's going to kick the economy in the balls.
 
AdamT said:
Yeah, that's just what we need. Spend a quarter of a trillion dollars doing something that's going to kick the economy in the balls.
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Please. I don't buy that "kick the economy in the balls" crap. I don't believe that "Americans won't do the jobs that illegals will do" (I should know...I'm american and have done every job which "americans won't do"). Any increase in prices due to kicking them out have been proven to be negligable. (I've posted a few links proving this before...and no, i'll not repost the links...do you're own homework.)

Will it unsettle the economy? A bit yeah...but it will quickly even out and be better for it.
 
Kal'Stang said:
Please. I don't buy that "kick the economy in the balls" crap. I don't believe that "Americans won't do the jobs that illegals will do" (I should know...I'm american and have done every job which "americans won't do"). Any increase in prices due to kicking them out have been proven to be negligable. (I've posted a few links proving this before...and no, i'll not repost the links...do you're own homework.)

Will it unsettle the economy? A bit yeah...but it will quickly even out and be better for it.
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There really isnt a need to round up, arrest all, and deport all. Alabamas laws for example have by many accounts caused a fairly substantial exodus of illegals from their state simply by insisting that people that register for school and social services be legal and documented, that employment and drivers privileges also be verified. Personally...I think thats the answer to most of the illegal immigration problem. Let the illegal immigrants all run to the sanctuary states and then ensure the fed doesnt bail out the sanctuary states when they go bankrupt because they cant support their problems they created. Continue to arrest and jail the violent criminal types, jail them longer for being here illegally, then send them home.

We bring in a LARGE number of LEGAL immigrants. Over a thousand every HOUR. Viva legal immigration and those willing to work to change their lives...love and respect. No one is attacking immigrants and I dont see too many folks suggesting that we should stop legal immigration. We cant economically sustain open borders, especially where so much of the money is being sent out of the country and economy.
 
Kal'Stang said:
Please. I don't buy that "kick the economy in the balls" crap. I don't believe that "Americans won't do the jobs that illegals will do" (I should know...I'm american and have done every job which "americans won't do"). Any increase in prices due to kicking them out have been proven to be negligable. (I've posted a few links proving this before...and no, i'll not repost the links...do you're own homework.)

Will it unsettle the economy? A bit yeah...but it will quickly even out and be better for it.
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I think that results in Alabama, Georgia, and other states would suggest otherwise, which is why businesses in those states are lobbying to roll back their immigration laws.
 
VanceMack said:
There really isnt a need to round up, arrest all, and deport all. Alabamas laws for example have by many accounts caused a fairly substantial exodus of illegals from their state simply by insisting that people that register for school and social services be legal and documented, that employment and drivers privileges also be verified. Personally...I think thats the answer to most of the illegal immigration problem. Let the illegal immigrants all run to the sanctuary states and then ensure the fed doesnt bail out the sanctuary states when they go bankrupt because they cant support their problems they created. Continue to arrest and jail the violent criminal types, jail them longer for being here illegally, then send them home.

We bring in a LARGE number of LEGAL immigrants. Over a thousand every HOUR. Viva legal immigration and those willing to work to change their lives...love and respect. No one is attacking immigrants and I dont see too many folks suggesting that we should stop legal immigration. We cant economically sustain open borders, especially where so much of the money is being sent out of the country and economy.
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I agree, we don't need to round them all up and deport them. But it is an option that should be on the table should it ever be needed.
 
AdamT said:
I think that results in Alabama, Georgia, and other states would suggest otherwise, which is why businesses in those states are lobbying to roll back their immigration laws.
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Some buisnesses sueing does not = bad economy. It does = buisnesses that don't want to pay at least minimum wage to thier employee's.
 
Kal'Stang said:
Some buisnesses sueing does not = bad economy. It does = buisnesses that don't want to pay at least minimum wage to thier employee's.
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It's not that they won't pay minimum wage -- it's that Americans aren't willing to do back-breaking work for minimum wage. So what do you do? Pay higher wages ... if you can still make a profit doing that. If not, go out of business. In order to pay higher wages you increase prices, which boosts inflation. Or you take less profit. However you look at it, it's bad news for the economy.
 
AdamT said:
It's not that they won't pay minimum wage -- it's that Americans aren't willing to do back-breaking work for minimum wage. So what do you do? Pay higher wages ... if you can still make a profit doing that. If not, go out of business. In order to pay higher wages you increase prices, which boosts inflation. Or you take less profit. However you look at it, it's bad news for the economy.
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Bold part: I've done the same work that illegals do and I know many other Americans that have as well. That line is BS. Especially when you consider the fact that there are lots of buisnesses that have the same work and yet only employ those that are legal. How is it that they can still pay the bills and stay in buisness and still make a profit? How is it that thier prices are still compareable to those buisnesses that do employ illegals?
 
Kal'Stang said:
Bold part: I've done the same work that illegals do and I know many other Americans that have as well. That line is BS. Especially when you consider the fact that there are lots of buisnesses that have the same work and yet only employ those that are legal. How is it that they can still pay the bills and stay in buisness and still make a profit? How is it that thier prices are still compareable to those buisnesses that do employ illegals?
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Well, you would be the exception to the rule, then, because the fact is that farmers have tried to replace these workers with domestic labor and they haven't been able to do it. Hell, the United Farm Workers have a "Take Our Jobs" program and website and they've had next to no response.
TAKEOURJOBS.ORG
United Farm Workers invite Americans to 'Take Our Jobs' - Jul. 7, 2010
 
AdamT said:
Well, you would be the exception to the rule, then, because the fact is that farmers have tried to replace these workers with domestic labor and they haven't been able to do it. Hell, the United Farm Workers have a "Take Our Jobs" program and website and they've had next to no response.
TAKEOURJOBS.ORG
United Farm Workers invite Americans to 'Take Our Jobs' - Jul. 7, 2010
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Again, how do you explain....

Especially when you consider the fact that there are lots of buisnesses that have the same work and yet only employ those that are legal. How is it that they can still pay the bills and stay in buisness and still make a profit? How is it that thier prices are still compareable to those buisnesses that do employ illegals?
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???

Edit to note that companies can still get migrant workers in a legal way if migrant workers really do "do the job that Americans won't do". All that it takes is an endorsement from a company on behalf of a migrant worker and they can get a temporary work visa.
 
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Kal'Stang said:
Again, how do you explain....



???

Edit to note that companies can still get migrant workers in a legal way if migrant workers really do "do the job that Americans won't do". All that it takes is an endorsement from a company on behalf of a migrant worker and they can get a temporary work visa.
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You're referring to a "fact" not in evidence. What are these other jobs that Americans do for minimum wage that involve working outdoors in the hot sun doing repetitive, back breaking manual labor?
 
AdamT said:
You're referring to a "fact" not in evidence. What are these other jobs that Americans do for minimum wage that involve working outdoors in the hot sun doing repetitive, back breaking manual labor?
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The same ones that illegals do. Are you really trying to assert that there are no companies that hire only legals in the same industries where illegals work?

And really, stop with the minimum wage bit. It doesn't matter that its at minimum wage or not. Buisnesses hire legals to do the same work that illegals do at or above minimum wage and they still compete and succeed against those buisnesses that hire illegals.
 
Kal'Stang said:
The same ones that illegals do. Are you really trying to assert that there are no companies that hire only legals in the same industries where illegals work?

And really, stop with the minimum wage bit. It doesn't matter that its at minimum wage or not. Buisnesses hire legals to do the same work that illegals do at or above minimum wage and they still compete and succeed against those buisnesses that hire illegals.
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You brought up minimum wage -- not me. :lol:

I was thinking specifically of farm labor, and to a somewhat lesser extent, construction labor. Those are the main areas where businesses have had trouble replacing immigrant labor.
 
Kal'Stang said:
The same ones that illegals do. Are you really trying to assert that there are no companies that hire only legals in the same industries where illegals work?

And really, stop with the minimum wage bit. It doesn't matter that its at minimum wage or not. Buisnesses hire legals to do the same work that illegals do at or above minimum wage and they still compete and succeed against those buisnesses that hire illegals.
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Stop the free government cheese and see just how quickly people become willing to take those jobs.
 
AdamT said:
You brought up minimum wage -- not me. :lol:
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I said...

Kal'Stang said:
Some buisnesses sueing does not = bad economy. It does = buisnesses that don't want to pay at least minimum wage to thier employee's.
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Note the bold and underlined part. I did not restrict our conversation to strictly minimum wage.

AdamT said:
I was thinking specifically of farm labor, and to a somewhat lesser extent, construction labor. Those are the main areas where businesses have had trouble replacing immigrant labor.
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So you think that there are no legals working in those jobs?
 
U.S. Socialist. said:
Yes we did, through a constitutional amendment. If you want to try and pass an amendment to the Constitution to allow the states to regulate naturalization and immigration,then go for it.
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Actually, most constitutional amendments, like the income tax, were put into practice years before they got added to the document.
 
VanceMack said:
Stop the free government cheese and see just how quickly people become willing to take those jobs.
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People are willing to take those jobs even with the "government cheese". Or are you saying that those on welfare are lazy?
 
Kal'Stang said:
People are willing to take those jobs even with the "government cheese". Or are you saying that those on welfare are lazy?
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No, but there are PLENTY of people living in FL right now with about a gazzilion kids, no job, and they get everything they need to live for free, or right next to it. Meanwhile they refuse to work such illustrious jobs as picking oranges, or even joining road crews, for no better reason than...they don't HAVE to.

If you don't HAVE to do something, why would you? Why work hard for the same standard of living that your neighbor enjoys, and enjoys for doing nothing?
 
There are a ton of other federal offenses that states can and do, and ARE required to oversee, enforce, prevent, and punish.


Why should upholding and enforcing existing immigration law be any different?

I think it's funny and highly revealing that the same liberals who would refer to the Constitution as being some dated document that needs to be changed to fit with the times, would point to it now, as if set in stone, concerning this issue, lol.
 
AdamT said:
I'm sure you're right -- these Alabama farmers are just lying ... because ... they just ove illegal aliens. Or something.

UPDATED (4): Farmers call for halt to new law (WITH VIDEOS) » Top News » CullmanTimes.com - Cullman, Alabama
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And you still evade my questions.

And what is more likely?

A few farmers are lying so that they don't have to pay thier workers more money?

Or

There are lots of buisnesses that hire only legals for the same exact work that those farmers claim "no american will do"?
 
KevinKohler said:
There are a ton of other federal offenses that states can and do, and ARE required to oversee, enforce, prevent, and punish.


Why should upholding and enforcing existing immigration law be any different?

I think it's funny and highly revealing that the same liberals who would refer to the Constitution as being some dated document that needs to be changed to fit with the times, would point to it now, as if set in stone, concerning this issue, lol.
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The general rule is that states can enforce federal *criminal* law but not federal civil law (without explicit permission). Immigration status is a civil matter. In other words, this isn't a case of the states doing what states normally do. It would be an unusual expansion of state enforcement power.
 
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