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Thread: Cost of High School Dropouts Draining US Taxpayer

  1. #61
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    Re: Cost of High School Dropouts Draining US Taxpayer

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    That really depends though, because in a lot of those fields you need additional instruction to learn the material to pass the certification tests.
    Merely getting a BS in Computer Programming isn't enough.

    Instead of filling the students time with bull**** like history, college success classes, etc.
    They should be learning more career related material.
    I think all college students starting from freshmen should be required to get internships, and that businesses should be required to provide them.

    And not these bull**** "free worker" internships either but more patient on-the-job training internships.
    Also, we need to legalize recreational drugs and prostitution.

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    Re: Cost of High School Dropouts Draining US Taxpayer

    Quote Originally Posted by samsmart View Post
    With that, I absolutely agree as well.

    I don't have a degree or any kind of certification. But that because I rely on on-the-job training. But there's an odd reason for this.

    All my life I've worked for the family businesses. So, in my case, I've just worked for basically one employer and then developed the skills needed to help it as needed.

    But it seems that most big corporations work in a different way. That is they realize they need some skills and hire someone with those skills while they need it and then fire them when they don't.

    I think this is a waste of manpower and human talent, and it's one reason why I advocate corporations having more of a direct influence on the education of their employees. That is I wish corporations would be more willing to pay for the training of their employees. This helps both the employees acquire a variety of skills their employer needs and it also keeps employers a loyal base of employees to they can recruit from.
    Agree completely.

    I've worked for several employers and have a litany of skills, that aren't transferable because I'm not certified/degree'd.
    I've worked as a dental lab technician, I can do the job, which requires considerable skill, but can't get past the gate keepers because I don't have a piece of paper saying I can do this.
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
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    Re: Cost of High School Dropouts Draining US Taxpayer

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    Yes but that doesn't say that it is efficient in delivering education.
    Nor does it say that it is inefficient either! It that truly was the case, i believe firms would have gotten the memo decades ago.

    Besides the fact that the graph presents schooling as means of greater earning and not necessarily education.
    People with graduate and professional degrees are highly educated; it would be silly to argue otherwise.

    The lack of that paper, does not mean that one is not educated, less educated, unqualified, etc.
    It does mean that your competency in that particular field of study was tested. I mean, not anyone can take the professional engineering licensing examination (you have to have an accredited degree).
    It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion.
    "Wealth of Nations," Book V, Chapter II, Part II, Article I, pg.911

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    Re: Cost of High School Dropouts Draining US Taxpayer

    Quote Originally Posted by Goldenboy219 View Post
    Nor does it say that it is inefficient either! It that truly was the case, i believe firms would have gotten the memo decades ago.
    But it is inefficient.
    Requiring all students to take classes in subjects where they are already past the level of competency is redundant and wasteful.
    An example, Intro to Micro Computers.

    Quote Originally Posted by Goldenboy219 View Post
    People with graduate and professional degrees are highly educated; it would be silly to argue otherwise.
    I didn't say that, I said that assuming the only way one can get an education, is through schooling.
    Not all people without graduate or professional degrees are uneducated.

    Quote Originally Posted by Goldenboy219 View Post
    It does mean that your competency in that particular field of study was tested. I mean, not anyone can take the professional engineering licensing examination (you have to have an accredited degree).
    What if one can pass the test, without having the degree?
    Didn't you start a successful business and then later earn your degrees?
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
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    Re: Cost of High School Dropouts Draining US Taxpayer

    Quote Originally Posted by rhinefire View Post
    Where does the money go when a large percent of the students drop out?
    Damn good question.
    "He who does not think himself worth saving from poverty and ignorance by his own efforts, will hardly be thought worth the efforts of anybody else." -- Frederick Douglass, Self-Made Men (1872)
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    Re: Cost of High School Dropouts Draining US Taxpayer

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    That really depends though, because in a lot of those fields you need additional instruction to learn the material to pass the certification tests.
    Merely getting a BS in Computer Programming isn't enough.
    Agreed. But you will not be allowed to get licensed without the degree.

    Instead of filling the students time with bull**** like history, college success classes, etc.
    They should be learning more career related material.
    If you want to critique tertiary education, you will have to present more than your specific beliefs.
    It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion.
    "Wealth of Nations," Book V, Chapter II, Part II, Article I, pg.911

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    Re: Cost of High School Dropouts Draining US Taxpayer

    Quote Originally Posted by Goldenboy219 View Post
    Agreed. But you will not be allowed to get licensed without the degree.
    Which is retarded, because a great many people have learned to program without the need of school.
    If schools offer alternatives for those who pursued self education, I wouldn't be so resistant, but they are trying to preserve their current, quasi rent seeking behavior.

    They could, test for competency, if the person passes, credit is given and the student doesn't have to waste time in a class where they already know the material.

    Quote Originally Posted by Goldenboy219 View Post
    If you want to critique tertiary education, you will have to present more than your specific beliefs.
    You know they load a schedule of necessary classes down with crap, that a lot of people are already well learned in.
    Not everything has to be demonstrated with empirical evidence.
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
    —Adam Shepard

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    Re: Cost of High School Dropouts Draining US Taxpayer

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    But it is inefficient.
    Requiring all students to take classes in subjects where they are already past the level of competency is redundant and wasteful.
    An example, Intro to Micro Computers.
    IIRC, you can always "test out" of intro courses if you possess the required skill set. Minimum proficiency examinations are surely the norm.

    What if one can pass the test, without having the degree?
    There will always be outliers.

    Didn't you start a successful business and then later earn your degrees?
    No. I started my business as a part time endeavor to pay for school.
    Last edited by Kushinator; 12-08-11 at 08:21 PM.
    It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion.
    "Wealth of Nations," Book V, Chapter II, Part II, Article I, pg.911

  9. #69
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    Re: Cost of High School Dropouts Draining US Taxpayer

    Quote Originally Posted by Goldenboy219 View Post
    IIRC, you can always "test out" of intro courses if you possess the required skill set. Minimum proficiency examinations are surely the norm.
    Not always, depends on the school or family of schools.

    Quote Originally Posted by Goldenboy219 View Post
    There will always be outliers.
    Those outliers shouldn't be ignored or scoffed away.
    The fact that someone has a high degree of technical knowledge, without any serious post secondary education, should alert someone to a huge potential for talent.

    Quote Originally Posted by Goldenboy219 View Post
    No. I started my business as a part time endeavor to pay for school.
    So was your success primarily because of your schooling or was it because you already had the talent to succeed?
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
    —Adam Shepard

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    Re: Cost of High School Dropouts Draining US Taxpayer

    Quote Originally Posted by samsmart View Post
    Well, there's a difference between knowing how to weld and being a professional welder.

    My dad runs a farm and he knows how to weld, and he's usually done it himself. But lately the kind of welding he needs done is beyond his skill. That's because he hasn't gotten any training for it - he learned the basics and then worked on that by doing it.

    So nowadays he has to hire a welder who runs his own mobile welding business and hires 3 other welders. He does those tougher, more complicated welding jobs. He has some certifications and he also has a portfolio of his work.

    But the difference between my dad's capacity to weld and this professional's capacity weld is that, well, he's a professional. By that I mean he understands things like how different metals interact together and how to watch out for things like water traps that will cause the metal to rust and basic engineering things like stuff that will likely fall apart. My dad wouldn't know any of that stuff regarding welding because he's an amateur and he saves money by doing what he can. But the professional welder knowing intricate and detailed things about that craft is why he gets to charge $80 an hour for his services.

    So on one hand you're right in that certifications and degrees are being used as gatekeepers and yardsticks for competency. But what my point is is that more technical skills require that kind of certification more than academic degrees.

    And the reason why is because those technical skills are more science based than academics are. So technical skills require more education to develop those skills but also demand more pay for those skills.

    I guess xkcd puts it best:

    xkcd: Impostor
    $80 an hour all while getting a degree/certificate without having to take art or French.

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