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Thread: Cost of High School Dropouts Draining US Taxpayer

  1. #51
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    Re: Cost of High School Dropouts Draining US Taxpayer

    Quote Originally Posted by Goldenboy219 View Post
    Education pays; there really is no way of denying it!



    The U.S. will require an even greater emphasis on education if we wish to remain competitive in the globalized information based economy of the present and future.
    Yes because employers use degrees as simplistic gate keepers.
    Having lots of money pays too.
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
    —Adam Shepard

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    Re: Cost of High School Dropouts Draining US Taxpayer

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    Yes because employers use degrees as simplistic gate keepers.
    Having lots of money pays too.
    Regardless of your valuation of tertiary education, the facts speak for themselves.
    It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion.
    "Wealth of Nations," Book V, Chapter II, Part II, Article I, pg.911

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    Re: Cost of High School Dropouts Draining US Taxpayer

    Quote Originally Posted by samsmart View Post
    Is it an addiction to low skilled labor? Or an addiction to low paid labor? Because those are two mutually exclusive things.
    Not really. Referring to productivity and efficiency wages demonstrates that human capital (skills) and wages have a linear relationship.
    It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion.
    "Wealth of Nations," Book V, Chapter II, Part II, Article I, pg.911

  4. #54
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    Re: Cost of High School Dropouts Draining US Taxpayer

    Quote Originally Posted by Goldenboy219 View Post
    Regardless of your valuation of tertiary education, the facts speak for themselves.
    Yes but that doesn't say that it is efficient in delivering education.
    Besides the fact that the graph presents schooling as means of greater earning and not necessarily education.

    The graph should read, "Schooling Pays."

    I love education, I spend a great deal of my time educating myself, however, it has not brought greater pay because I don't get a piece of paper that says, "Bachelor of Arts/Science in X."
    The lack of that paper, does not mean that one is not educated, less educated, unqualified, etc.
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
    —Adam Shepard

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    Re: Cost of High School Dropouts Draining US Taxpayer

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    Some of those technical skills don't even require an education.
    Hell it took me 15 minutes to learn to mig weld, time on the job perfected it.

    The problem is that many employers are using degrees and certifications as gate keepers, instead of more dynamic ways of testing competency.
    Well, there's a difference between knowing how to weld and being a professional welder.

    My dad runs a farm and he knows how to weld, and he's usually done it himself. But lately the kind of welding he needs done is beyond his skill. That's because he hasn't gotten any training for it - he learned the basics and then worked on that by doing it.

    So nowadays he has to hire a welder who runs his own mobile welding business and hires 3 other welders. He does those tougher, more complicated welding jobs. He has some certifications and he also has a portfolio of his work.

    But the difference between my dad's capacity to weld and this professional's capacity weld is that, well, he's a professional. By that I mean he understands things like how different metals interact together and how to watch out for things like water traps that will cause the metal to rust and basic engineering things like stuff that will likely fall apart. My dad wouldn't know any of that stuff regarding welding because he's an amateur and he saves money by doing what he can. But the professional welder knowing intricate and detailed things about that craft is why he gets to charge $80 an hour for his services.

    So on one hand you're right in that certifications and degrees are being used as gatekeepers and yardsticks for competency. But what my point is is that more technical skills require that kind of certification more than academic degrees.

    And the reason why is because those technical skills are more science based than academics are. So technical skills require more education to develop those skills but also demand more pay for those skills.

    I guess xkcd puts it best:

    xkcd: Impostor
    Also, we need to legalize recreational drugs and prostitution.

  6. #56
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    Re: Cost of High School Dropouts Draining US Taxpayer

    Quote Originally Posted by samsmart View Post
    Well, there's a difference between knowing how to weld and being a professional welder.

    My dad runs a farm and he knows how to weld, and he's usually done it himself. But lately the kind of welding he needs done is beyond his skill. That's because he hasn't gotten any training for it - he learned the basics and then worked on that by doing it.

    So nowadays he has to hire a welder who runs his own mobile welding business and hires 3 other welders. He does those tougher, more complicated welding jobs. He has some certifications and he also has a portfolio of his work.

    But the difference between my dad's capacity to weld and this professional's capacity weld is that, well, he's a professional. By that I mean he understands things like how different metals interact together and how to watch out for things like water traps that will cause the metal to rust and basic engineering things like stuff that will likely fall apart. My dad wouldn't know any of that stuff regarding welding because he's an amateur and he saves money by doing what he can. But the professional welder knowing intricate and detailed things about that craft is why he gets to charge $80 an hour for his services.

    So on one hand you're right in that certifications and degrees are being used as gatekeepers and yardsticks for competency. But what my point is is that more technical skills require that kind of certification more than academic degrees.

    And the reason why is because those technical skills are more science based than academics are. So technical skills require more education to develop those skills but also demand more pay for those skills.

    I guess xkcd puts it best:

    xkcd: Impostor
    That's a fair example.
    I am, by no means, a professional welder in that sort.
    I just do it on the odd occasion that the guy who welds, needs to step away.

    The problem I see with this whole "more education" argument, is that it isn't necessarily advocating getting people educated, but rather people need to be schooled, when one can earn an education in a variety of ways.
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
    —Adam Shepard

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    Re: Cost of High School Dropouts Draining US Taxpayer

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    The problem is that many employers are using degrees and certifications as gate keepers, instead of more dynamic ways of testing competency.
    Licensing and professional examinations play a large role in highly skilled fields. Whether is it computer science, quantitative research, engineering, health care services, you name it; having a degree in a respective field provides you with the credentials necessary to industry specific examinations.
    It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion.
    "Wealth of Nations," Book V, Chapter II, Part II, Article I, pg.911

  8. #58
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    Re: Cost of High School Dropouts Draining US Taxpayer

    Quote Originally Posted by Goldenboy219 View Post
    Licensing and professional examinations play a large role in highly skilled fields. Whether is it computer science, quantitative research, engineering, health care services, you name it; having a degree in a respective field provides you with the credentials necessary to industry specific examinations.
    That really depends though, because in a lot of those fields you need additional instruction to learn the material to pass the certification tests.
    Merely getting a BS in Computer Programming isn't enough.

    Instead of filling the students time with bull**** like history, college success classes, etc.
    They should be learning more career related material.
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
    —Adam Shepard

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    Re: Cost of High School Dropouts Draining US Taxpayer

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    That's a fair example.
    I am, by no means, a professional welder in that sort.
    I just do it on the odd occasion that the guy who welds, needs to step away.

    The problem I see with this whole "more education" argument, is that it isn't necessarily advocating getting people educated, but rather people need to be schooled, when one can earn an education in a variety of ways.
    With that, I absolutely agree as well.

    I don't have a degree or any kind of certification. But that because I rely on on-the-job training. But there's an odd reason for this.

    All my life I've worked for the family businesses. So, in my case, I've just worked for basically one employer and then developed the skills needed to help it as needed.

    But it seems that most big corporations work in a different way. That is they realize they need some skills and hire someone with those skills while they need it and then fire them when they don't.

    I think this is a waste of manpower and human talent, and it's one reason why I advocate corporations having more of a direct influence on the education of their employees. That is I wish corporations would be more willing to pay for the training of their employees. This helps both the employees acquire a variety of skills their employer needs and it also keeps employers a loyal base of employees to they can recruit from.
    Also, we need to legalize recreational drugs and prostitution.

  10. #60
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    Re: Cost of High School Dropouts Draining US Taxpayer

    Quote Originally Posted by Goldenboy219 View Post
    The U.S. will require an even greater emphasis on education if we wish to remain competitive in the globalized information based economy of the present and future.
    They should require it. I agree, no good way to deny that on any level.

    And that's a great wedge/philosophical issue to post to "libertarians". Yes freedom to attend or not attend school is great, and so is the freedom to not pay for others education, etc. But it is inescapable that we are in a global environment that makes all those lovely individual rights at great risk, if we do not maintain significant economic power. How they personally answer that dillemma I am keen to read.

    Neocons split from anti-welfare state types on issues exactly like this. Without being a power, the U.S. can't enforce it's lofty rights, it's an acceptance of the reality of power and the necessity to defend what you want. We can't really give people to "not defend our rights", if we value those rights, just the way it is.

    But then I would guess most liberals pursue the same "desire for state education" for less reasonable reasons...althought the outcome may be desireable just the same.

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