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Thread: Obama sees 'make or break' time for middle class

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    Re: Obama sees 'make or break' time for middle class

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    Don't worry. Working people all over the country have seen that Obama is willing to put his agenda ahead of the well-being of the working class.
    That does not even make an iota of sense.
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    Re: Obama sees 'make or break' time for middle class

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    That does not even make an iota of sense.
    Of course it doesn't, to you.

    You still refuse to accept the fact that Obama has knowingly and intentionally killed millions of jobs in this country.

    Enjoy all that Cuban oil that your tax dollars are paying to produce.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: Obama sees 'make or break' time for middle class

    read this section of the law - it is clear and direct.... the financial emergency manager has ALL power to order a mayor and council to do anything they want them to do and they have NO power to do anything but obey or risk being dismissed and sent home.

    141.1517 Issuance of orders.Sec. 17.
    (1) The emergency manager shall issue to the appropriate local elected and appointed officials and employees, agents, and contractors of the local government the orders the manager considers necessary to accomplish the purposes of this act, including, but not limited to, orders for the timely and satisfactory implementation of a financial and operating plan developed pursuant to section 18, including an academic and educational plan for a school district, or to take actions, or refrain from taking actions, to enable the orderly accomplishment of the financial and operating plan. An order issued under this section is binding on the local elected and appointed officials and employees, agents, and contractors of the local government to whom it is issued. Local elected and appointed officials and employees, agents, and contractors of the local government shall take and direct those actions that are necessary and advisable to maintain compliance with the financial and operating plan.
    (2) If an order of the emergency manager under subsection (1) is not reasonably carried out and the failure to carry out an order is disrupting the emergency manager's ability to manage the local government, the emergency manager, in addition to other remedies provided in this act, may prohibit the local elected or appointed official or employee, agent, or contractor of the local government from access to the local government's office facilities, electronic mail, and internal information systems.
    The elected representatives of the people are now powerless and impotent. The actual and real power - all 100% of it - is in the hands of a non elected official who is responsible to not one member of that community. The people are stripped of their power to vote for those running their local government.


    Not only that, but the impotent and powerless officials that had been elected previously can be sent home and denied any access to anything having to do with their elected jobs and duties. In effect, they are officials on paper only with no power of any kind no matter how insignificant or tiny.

    The result is that people live in a community and pay taxes in that community and are bound by the laws of that community but the government of that community is IMPOSED upon them and they have no vote, no voice and no power to do anything about it. That is a direct and complete betrayal of the words of Abraham Lincoln - "a government of the people, by the people and for the people".
    Last edited by haymarket; 12-10-11 at 03:01 PM.
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    Re: Obama sees 'make or break' time for middle class

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    read this section of the law - it is clear and direct.... the financial emergency manager has ALL power to order a mayor and council to do anything they want them to do and they have NO power to do anything but obey or risk being dismissed and sent home.



    The elected representatives of the people are now powerless and impotent. The actual and real power - all 100% of it - is in the hands of a non elected official who is responsible to not one member of that community. The people are stripped of their power to vote for those running their local government.


    Not only that, but the impotent and powerless officials that had been elected previously can be sent home and denied any access to anything having to do with their elected jobs and duties. In effect, they are officials on paper only with no power of any kind no matter how insignificant or tiny.

    The result is that people live in a community and pay taxes in that community and are bound by the laws of that community but the government of that community is IMPOSED upon them and they have no vote, no voice and no power to do anything about it. That is a direct and complete betrayal of the words of Abraham Lincoln - "a government of the people, by the people and for the people".
    Seeing how well things are going in those minority communities, that doesn't sound like a bad thing.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: Obama sees 'make or break' time for middle class

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    read this section of the law - it is clear and direct.... the financial emergency manager has ALL power to order a mayor and council to do anything they want them to do and they have NO power to do anything but obey or risk being dismissed and sent home.



    The elected representatives of the people are now powerless and impotent. The actual and real power - all 100% of it - is in the hands of a non elected official who is responsible to not one member of that community. The people are stripped of their power to vote for those running their local government.


    Not only that, but the impotent and powerless officials that had been elected previously can be sent home and denied any access to anything having to do with their elected jobs and duties. In effect, they are officials on paper only with no power of any kind no matter how insignificant or tiny.

    The result is that people live in a community and pay taxes in that community and are bound by the laws of that community but the government of that community is IMPOSED upon them and they have no vote, no voice and no power to do anything about it. That is a direct and complete betrayal of the words of Abraham Lincoln - "a government of the people, by the people and for the people".
    your hyperbole gets old real fast....

    next time, include a link to your sources so we can all view the law in it's entirety.

    you have still not proven that people are having their voting rights stripped... or any of the other rhetoric you spew.

    what you are saying is akin to saying impeaching and removing an elected official is stripping the rights of voters.. which is entirely false.

    an emergency manager is tasked with the emergency fiscal management of a local government unit... and saying the local elected official can get the boot if he is not compliant with the superior authority is not imposing a dictatorship of any kind... it's giving the emergency manager teeth... teeth given by consent of the citizens of the state through their elected state officials.
    " either you work with me, or you'll get out of the way".. which makes perfect sense.
    saying " you'll work with me, or i'll just have to sit in the corner while you continue to **** up" doesn't.
    some problem are outside of the scope of local officials to handle.. or the local officials are handling the fiscal problems improperly

    i've found the law in it's entirely... and I'm glad i did... taking your word for anything has proven to be ... less than productive.

    it'll take some time to get through, but i'll comment further when I get done.....

    right off the bat, i see you ignore that in order for a emergency manager to exist, the local government has to call on the state government to intervene in it's finances ... but that wouldn't sit well with your rhetoric about stripping voting rights and dictatorships ans such, so i would see why you would ignore it.

    you are confusing constraints put upon elected officials with constraints put on voters... they are not the same.

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    Re: Obama sees 'make or break' time for middle class

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    Seeing how well things are going in those minority communities, that doesn't sound like a bad thing.
    it's not unlike a bankruptcy... but instead of a judge saying you have to do this ,this, and this to get your finances in order, the state appoints an emergency manager ... it's a proactive step to ward off bankruptcy and restore fiscal responsibility by reordering contracts and such.


    here's a link to the whole law...section by section
    Michigan Legislature - Act 4 of 2011

    it's not the "great dictator and voting rights denial act of 2011" as someone here is selling ...that much is crystal clear.

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    Re: Obama sees 'make or break' time for middle class

    from Thrilla

    your hyperbole gets old real fast....
    For a self confessed Libertarian with your history of statements in posts, that is a bit like a serial killer complaining about violence in films.

    next time, include a link to your sources so we can all view the law in it's entirety.
    You had a link to the entire law before you posted your goose stepping orders. My post #68.

    you have still not proven that people are having their voting rights stripped... or any of the other rhetoric you spew.
    Did you not read the law with the appropriate sections bolded for you?



    what you are saying is akin to saying impeaching and removing an elected official is stripping the rights of voters.. which is entirely false.
    No. It is what it is and nothing else. the duly elected representatives of the people are replaced in a dictatorial fashion by a decision made by a non elected State official - the Treasurer of the State - and the elected officials are relegated to simply obeying orders and being sent home without any milk and cookies if they balk at the slightest order. The people have no power to vote for those who run their city government.

    Which part of the law do you fail to understand?

    Do you fail to understand that the appointment is made and imposed upon the city?

    Do you fail to understand that the people have no voice or say in the matter?

    Do you fail to understand that the emergency manager is not elected by the people over which they rule like a dictator?

    Do you fail to understand that the people cannot depose the emergency manager and are powerless and impotent against their dictates and orders?

    Do you fail to understand that this is NOT a government by the people as Lincoln described our system of government to be?

    Do you fail to understand that this is NOT a government of the people as Lincoln described our system of government to be?

    an emergency manager is tasked with the emergency fiscal management of a local government unit... and saying the local elected official can get the boot if he is not compliant with the superior authority is not imposing a dictatorship of any kind... it's giving the emergency manager teeth... teeth given by consent of the citizens of the state through their elected state officials.
    " either you work with me, or you'll get out of the way".. which makes perfect sense.
    Dictators do indeed have what you describe as "teeth". Superior authority is a good way to describe it since the elected official now has no authority of any kind.



    i've found the law in it's entirely... and I'm glad i did... taking your word for anything has proven to be ... less than productive.
    If you knew how to follow the link on the Michigan site I provided you could have read it at that time. My post #68 which predated your post by over two hours when you complained about not having the law.




    right off the bat, i see you ignore that in order for a emergency manager to exist, the local government has to call on the state government to intervene in it's finances ... but that wouldn't sit well with your rhetoric about stripping voting rights and dictatorships ans such, so i would see why you would ignore it.
    Oh really? Then why oh why is Detroit frantically trying to stop this right as we speak? I quoted the law in my post... why are you impotent to do the same?

    http://michiganradio.org/post/detroi...rgency-manager

    Detroit Mayor Dave Bing is addressing residents tonight about the city's financial troubles. And he answered one looming question right off the bat:

    “Let me make one thing perfectly clear: I don’t want an emergency manager making decisions for my city,” Bing said.
    So just who is it in local government calling upon the state to institute a dictatorship in Detroit? Please name them. In fact, the law that I linked to provides some twenty circumstances for this trigger to be pulled and many do NOT HAVE TO INVOLVE ANY REQUEST FROM LOCAL GOVERNMENT. Again, read the law

    141.1512 Preliminary review by local government state financial authority to determine financial problem; conditions; notification to local government; finding of probable stress for municipal government or school district; appointment of review team by governor; staff support; duration of appointment.
    Sec. 12.

    (1) The state financial authority of a local government may conduct a preliminary review to determine the existence of a local government financial problem if 1 or more of the following occur:

    (a) The governing body or the chief administrative officer of a local government requests a preliminary review under this act. The request shall be in writing and shall identify the existing or anticipated financial conditions or events that make the request necessary.

    (b) The state financial authority receives a written request from a creditor with an undisputed claim that remains unpaid 6 months after its due date against the local government that exceeds the greater of $10,000.00 or 1% of the annual general fund budget of the local government, provided that the creditor notifies the local government in writing at least 30 days before his or her request to the state financial authority of his or her intention to submit a written request under this subdivision.

    (c) The state financial authority receives a petition containing specific allegations of local government financial distress signed by a number of registered electors residing within the local government's jurisdiction equal to not less than 5% of the total vote cast for all candidates for governor within the local government's jurisdiction at the last preceding election at which a governor was elected. Petitions shall not be filed under this subdivision within 60 days before any election of the local government.

    (d) The state financial authority receives written notification that a local government has not timely deposited its minimum obligation payment to the local government pension fund as required by law.

    (e) The state financial authority receives written notification that the local government has failed for a period of 7 days or more after the scheduled date of payment to pay wages and salaries or other compensation owed to employees or benefits owed to retirees.

    (f) The state financial authority receives written notification from a trustee, paying agent, bondholder, or auditor engaged by the local government of a default in a bond or note payment or a violation of 1 or more bond or note covenants.

    (g) The state financial authority of a local government receives a resolution from either the senate or the house of representatives requesting a preliminary review under this section.

    (h) The local government has violated a requirement of, or a condition of an order issued pursuant to, former 1943 PA 202, the revenue bond act of 1933, 1933 PA 94, MCL 141.101 to 141.140, the revised municipal finance act, 2001 PA 34, MCL 141.2101 to 141.2821, or any other law governing the issuance of bonds or notes.

    (i) A municipal government has violated the conditions of an order issued by the local emergency financial assistance loan board pursuant to the emergency municipal loan act, 1980 PA 243, MCL 141.931 to 141.942.

    (j) The local government has violated a requirement of sections 17 to 20 of the uniform budgeting and accounting act, 1968 PA 2, MCL 141.437 to 141.440.

    (k) The local government fails to timely file an annual financial report or audit that conforms with the minimum procedures and standards of the state financial authority and is required for local governments under the uniform budgeting and accounting act, 1968 PA 2, MCL 141.421 to 141.440a, or 1919 PA 71, MCL 21.41 to 21.55. In addition, if the local government is a school district, the school district fails to provide an annual financial report or audit that conforms with the minimum procedures and standards of the superintendent of public instruction and is required under the revised school code, 1976 PA 451, MCL 380.1 to 380.1852, and 1979 PA 94, MCL 388.1601 to 388.1772.

    (l) A municipal government is delinquent in the distribution of tax revenues, as required by law, that it has collected for another taxing jurisdiction, and that taxing jurisdiction requests a preliminary review.

    (m) A local government is in breach of its obligations under a deficit elimination plan or an agreement entered into pursuant to a deficit elimination plan.

    (n) A court has ordered an additional tax levy without the prior approval of the governing body of the local government.

    (o) A municipal government has ended a fiscal year in a deficit condition as defined in section 21 of the Glenn Steil state revenue sharing act of 1971, 1971 PA 140, MCL 141.921, or has failed to comply with the requirements of that section for filing or instituting a financial plan to correct the deficit condition.

    (p) A school district ended its most recently completed fiscal year with a deficit in 1 or more of its funds and the school district has not submitted a deficit elimination plan to the state financial authority within 30 days after the district's deadline for submission of its annual financial statement.

    (q) A local government has been assigned a long-term debt rating within or below the BBB category or its equivalent by 1 or more nationally recognized credit rating agencies.

    (r) The existence of other facts or circumstances that in the state treasurer's sole discretion for a municipal government are indicative of municipal financial stress, or, that in the superintendent of public instruction's sole discretion for a school district are indicative of school district financial stress.

    (2) If the state financial authority determines that a preliminary review is appropriate under this section, before commencing the preliminary review the state financial authority shall give the local government specific written notification of the review. The preliminary review shall be completed within 30 days following its commencement. Elected and appointed officials of a local government shall promptly and fully provide the assistance and information requested by the state financial authority for that local government in conducting the preliminary review.

    (3) If a finding of probable financial stress is made for a municipal government under subsection (2), the governor shall appoint a review team for that municipal government consisting of the state treasurer or his or her designee, the director of the department of technology, management, and budget or his or her designee, a nominee of the senate majority leader, and a nominee of the speaker of the house of representatives. The governor may appoint other state officials or other persons with relevant professional experience to serve on a review team to undertake a municipal financial management review.

    (4) If a finding of probable financial stress is made for a school district under subsection (2), the governor shall appoint a review team for that school district consisting of the state treasurer or his or her designee, the superintendent of public instruction or his or her designee, the director of the department of technology, management, and budget or his or her designee, a nominee of the senate majority leader, and a nominee of the speaker of the house of representatives. The governor may appoint other state officials or other persons with relevant professional experience to serve on a review team to undertake a school district financial management review.

    (5) The department of treasury shall provide staff support to each review team.

    (6) A review team appointed under former 1988 PA 101 or former 1990 PA 72 and serving on the effective date of this act shall continue under this act to fulfill their powers and duties. All proceedings and actions taken by the governor, the state treasurer, or a review team under former 1988 PA 101 or former 1990 PA 72 before the effective date of this act are ratified and are enforceable as if the proceedings and actions were taken under this act, and a consent agreement entered into under former 1988 PA 101 or former 1990 PA 72 is ratified and is binding and enforceable under this act.
    There is no mandate or demand for any local government person to ask for this and it can be IMPOSED upon them from the State level.


    you are confusing constraints put upon elected officials with constraints put on voters... they are not the same.
    BS in truck fulls. The people are ruled by a dictator and they have no power to elect their own officials. They have been stripped of that power.
    Last edited by haymarket; 12-10-11 at 06:13 PM.
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    Re: Obama sees 'make or break' time for middle class

    Quote Originally Posted by Thrilla View Post
    it's not unlike a bankruptcy... but instead of a judge saying you have to do this ,this, and this to get your finances in order, the state appoints an emergency manager ... it's a proactive step to ward off bankruptcy and restore fiscal responsibility by reordering contracts and such.


    here's a link to the whole law...section by section
    Michigan Legislature - Act 4 of 2011
    Who are you trying to fool here? Just who? I gave you this link over two hours before you posted your stuff - see my post #68. This is the same material for heavens sake. You really got a lotta nerve!
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    Re: Obama sees 'make or break' time for middle class

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    So what? You do realize that money invested has already been taxed once already when it was made right?

    j-mac
    So what? You do realize you are not being taxed on the money you invest but rather the earnings above your initial investment right?
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    Re: Obama sees 'make or break' time for middle class

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    Who are you trying to fool here? Just who? I gave you this link over two hours before you posted your stuff - see my post #68. This is the same material for heavens sake. You really got a lotta nerve!
    ahh yes, so you did... I missed it, my bad

    i'm still going over the law... and i'm still dismissing your hyperbole as the bull**** it most obviously is...it is not dictatorial in nature, it is not racist in nature, it strips no voter of any rights... you are quite simply...wrong.

    for what it's worth , I don't care about Detroit or Michigan, or this law personally, I have no dog in this hunt.....
    all i see is talk up there... for 2 years mayor Bing has had the helm, and he has failed in taking care of the fiscal problems... the city council hasn't dealt with them to any discernible effect... nobody at the local level has done ****.... up until the state said " if y'all won't do it, we will".. and all of sudden, city officials are scrambling to find way out of their mess (ironically, asking the state to come help)... at the very least, this law serves as a nice motivating tool to get local officials and union bosses off their ass.

    hopefully Detroit can fix it's mess before emergency measures are taken... it's possible, and it's going to test the city quite a bit... but if they can't handle it, the state will step in and handle their finances for them.

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