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Thread: Obama sees 'make or break' time for middle class

  1. #111
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    Re: Obama sees 'make or break' time for middle class

    Quote Originally Posted by Thrilla View Post
    well.. sorta... it's the superior government taking receivership of the local government.
    it's a government takeover of government....something that liberals generally support when it comes to the federal government usurping states powers.
    It's central government taking over local government, which is the exact opposite of what conservatives preach.

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    Re: Obama sees 'make or break' time for middle class

    Quote Originally Posted by AdamT View Post
    It's central government taking over local government, which is the exact opposite of what conservatives preach.
    well,I guess if you are interested in striping away all context and dumbing down the issue down to basic ideological tenants, I guess you may have a point.

    I don't think i've ever had a discussion that surrounded a state government usurping powers of a local government, so i can't say for sure what the consensus among conservatives is.... every discussion i've seen surrounding issues like this have to do with the federal government usurping state powers.

    If conservatives are the ones who oppose such government takeovers.. why are liberals/progressives throwing fits here?.. what causes the competing ideologies to switch sides over this particular issue?... maybe is not so simple as basic perceptions of ideological tenants after all <shrugs>

    in any event, maybe there's a lesson to be learned here... in that it's best to keep a keen eye on your local government to make sure they do their jobs as to stave off state intervention... handling your business correctly, as i see it, is the best course of action... undesirable consequences can happen if you don't.


    edit to add.... a state government is not a central government, btw... a central government usually pertains to the national government.
    if we are to accept that a state government is the central government, then you would have to concede that state government are , indeed, sovereign.
    (sovereignty is at the heart of the definition of a central government)
    Last edited by Thrilla; 12-11-11 at 06:01 PM.

  3. #113
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    Re: Obama sees 'make or break' time for middle class

    from Thrilla

    well.. sorta... it's the superior government taking receivership of the local government.
    it's a government takeover of government....something that liberals generally support when it comes to the federal government usurping states powers.

    in any event... this whole scenario is one of receivership... not a dictatorship, racism, or stripping voters rights... it's a measure to stave off a worse alternative.. that of bankruptcy.
    Why are you intentionally and purposely trying to ratchet down what is happening by applying some benign phraseology to this? You can call rape merely sex but if it is forced it fits the definition of rape. And that is what this is. Local government is not merely being handed over to a receiver or something so innocent sounding. It is being forcibly and purposely being taken over by the State and all local governmental powers and many many more normally denied to local government are being given to one person who can dictate what happens in that town. And the people have no voice. The people have no say. The people have no vote. The people have no power.

    You, like many on the right, seem to be actively trying to remove the very use of the word RACISM from political discussion. You seem not to be upset about actual RACISM, but you sure as heck do not like it to be invoked. Get used to it. Its there. The law was passed by ALL Republican votes and all represent very white areas of the state mostly in the rural areas and in the suburbs. The communities hit by this law have been communities of people of color represented by Democrats in the Legislature. You don't like the racial implication of that and guess what? Nobody else does either but its there as sure as the sun sets in the west tonight.

    The fact is that if the process is completed in Detroit and Inkster, that a majority of African American citizens in Michigan will be living under local governments which were imposed upon them in a dictatorial fashion by the state without their consent or without their vote.

    I have been incorrect on a couple of statement regarding the letter of the law, sure ( concerning triggers and consent).. because I hadn't fully read it yet.
    I am certainly not immune to talking out of my ass from time to time.. especially in the face of extreme hyperbole.
    Well thank you for admitting you were wrong about some of what you claimed was in this law. As to your excuse of responding to hyperbole, any errors you made were not forced upon you but made of your own power. As to hyperbole, you have yet to show that any one thing I said about this law is not true as I stated it.

    that said, i'm generally supportive of this emergency measure on a practical basis..... I understand what receivership is , what it entails, and the pros and cons.
    Of course you are. You do not live in that community and it is not your right to vote for your own local government that has been stripped from you.


    I think it is a bit heavy handed ( but it isn't a dictatorship)... but then again, a heavy handed approach isn't necessarily wrong or bad in certain emergency circumstances... and such heavy handedness isn't really unprecedented in our system.
    Again, because it is not in YOUR community and is NOT happening to people like yourself.

    the race baiting element we have going on is really troublesome though.... it really doesn't matter what the demographics of the local population are.. this law does not discriminate against any race color or creed. ... all of that is irrelevant to the financial emergency of the local government.... it's an unnecessary and silly distraction from the issue at hand.. it's simple race baiting, and it's abhorrent.
    Actually, it does matter what the demographics are. It matters significantly what the demographics are. We soon will have a majority of African American citizens in Michigan denied the right to vote for their local government and forced to live with a government imposed upon them in a dictatorial fashion. And the people who did this are Republicans from the suburbs and rural areas who do not receive the votes of African Americans in elections. What is abhorrent is NOT the facing of this reality but rather the reality of its ugliness and the denial of American rights of citizenship to these citizens.

    Again, every single claim I made about the law was true and is true. You have not been able to take one thing I said about it and show it was not part of the law that I provided for you. You don't like my choice of words and wish to soften them to ratchet down the horrible implications of this naked rape of the citizenry. I see the same thing in the state capitol for the past few months and am used to it from Republicans.


    If conservatives are the ones who oppose such government takeovers.. why are liberals/progressives throwing fits here?.. what causes the competing ideologies to switch sides over this particular issue?... maybe is not so simple as basic perceptions of ideological tenants after all <shrugs>
    You have it all wrong and are operating from a false premise. Conservatives - at least those here in Michigan- do not oppose government takeovers. They engineer them. They authorize them. They make them legal. Nobody is switching sides or ideologies. Your rather weak effort to turn this into a game of three card montie goes nowhere.

    As to why progressives are throwing fits here? President Abraham Lincoln said it best - America enjoys "a government of the people, by the people and for the people" . And Republicans in Michigan are denying that basic right to many people in this state.

    I suspect Honest Abe is spinning in his grave in Springfield.
    Last edited by haymarket; 12-11-11 at 06:07 PM.
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    Re: Obama sees 'make or break' time for middle class

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    from Thrilla



    Why are you intentionally and purposely trying to ratchet down what is happening by applying some benign phraseology to this? You can call rape merely sex but if it is forced it fits the definition of rape. And that is what this is. Local government is not being handed over to a receiver or something so innocent sounding. It is being forcibly and purposely being taken over by the State and all local governmental powers and many many more normally denied to local government are being given to one person who can dictate what happens in that town. And the people have no voice. The people have no say. The people have no vote. The people have no power.
    I utilize the terms i do because they are accurate .. and I do not wish to engage in hyperbole while simultaneously denouncing it.

    it is absolutely correct and accurate to state that local governments are being handed into receivership.

    the people never possessed the power to make decisions over the financial house of the city.. the people do not vote on contracts, wages, benefits, services, or collective bargaining agreements... you cannot say they are stripped of a power they did not possess.. it would be entirely inaccurate to state as much.
    the people, did however, vote into office those state officials who work towards their benefit by putting their city into receivership.
    the people are free to vote for whomever they like in the local and state elections... but upon entering into a receivership, those elected officials are relegated to the inferior position , by law.
    nothing in the law precludes the local officials from working with the emergency manager, in fact, it requires they do so.
    again, this is an emergency situation... were the local officials to do their job properly, they can effectively stave off the emergency and preclude state intervention.
    there is ample opportunity to do the right thing, there is ample incentive to do the right thing... doing the wrong thing will have consequences.

    You, like many on the right, seem to be actively trying to remove the very use of the word RACISM from political discussion. You seem not to be upset about actual RACISM, but you sure as heck do not like it to be invoked. Get used to it. Its there. The law was passed by ALL Republican votes and all represent very white areas of the state mostly in the rural areas and in the suburbs. The communities hit by this law have been communities of people of color represented by Democrats in the Legislature. You don't like the racial implication of that and guess what? Nobody else does either but its there as sure as the sun sets in the west tonight.
    racism has nothing to do with the issue... race has nothing to do with the issue.. you are simply unneccessarily race baiting

    The fact is that if the process is completed in Detroit and Inkster, that a majority of African American citizens in Michigan will be living under local governments which were imposed upon them in a dictatorial fashion by the state without their consent or without their vote.
    ..are there no white people in Detroit?... is the government any different for white citizen than black citizens of Detroit?... do the black citizens have to live under the emergency manager, but the whites get to live under their usual government?... if the law, as imposed, does not discriminate , that you have no argument.
    the demographics of the cities in question are irrelevant... the financial situation is all that is relevant.




    Well thank you for admitting you were wrong about some of what you claimed was in this law. As to your excuse of responding to hyperbole, any errors you made were not forced upon you but made of your own power. As to hyperbole, you have yet to show that any one thing I said about this law is not true as I stated it.
    you're welcome.



    Of course you are. You do not live in that community and it is not your right to vote for your own local government that has been stripped from you
    .
    this is true, i don't live there... and I really really hope that the people who do live there keep their local government accountable , as to stave off any emergency measures imposed on them by the state government that also represents them.
    Again, because it is not in YOUR community and is NOT happening to people like yourself.
    ... true again.. i'm able to hav a more objective look at the issue when i don't have a dog in the hunt.




    Actually, it does matter what the demographics are. It matters significantly what the demographics are. We soon will have a majority of African American citizens in Michigan denied the right to vote for their local government and forced to live with a government imposed upon them in a dictatorial fashion. And the people who did this are Republicans from the suburbs and rural areas who do not receive the votes of African Americans in elections. What is abhorrent is NOT the facing of this reality but rather the reality of its ugliness and the denial of American rights of citizenship to these citizens.
    demographics to no matter, they are irrelevant.... when you can show that this law pertains to blacks and not whites, you'll start to have an argument, until then.. you don't have one... you have nothing more than race baiting.
    maybe you can show us in the law where it states that the racial demographics of a city are relevant in any shape form or fashion.. i can't seem to find such a thing.

    Again, every single claim I made about the law was true and is true. You have not been able to take one thing I said about it and show it was not part of the law that I provided for you. You don't like my choice of words and wish to soften them to ratchet down the horrible implications of this naked rape of the citizenry. I see the same thing in the state capitol for the past few months and am used to it from Republicans.
    you are free to defend your hyperbole as you deem fit... but I do not have to accept it as valid, nor will I.
    i'm glad to hear that Republicans in the legislature aren't engaging in hyperbole.. I would expect Democrats to do as much too... it's the mature responsible thing to do.

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    Re: Obama sees 'make or break' time for middle class

    What hyperbole am I engaging in?

    What have I said about this Public Law #4 that you have found to be proven false?

    You and I can go a thousand posts back and forth about the racial implications of this law without resolution.

    Are you ever going to answer the key question here that I asked you a long time ago.....

    Do you people of these communities who have a emergency financial manager get to vote for the people who are their local government or not?
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    Re: Obama sees 'make or break' time for middle class

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    What hyperbole am I engaging in?
    .. you're joking.. right?



    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    Do you people of these communities who have a emergency financial manager get to vote for the people who are their local government or not?
    .. yes, they do.... I see no provisions of delaying or preventing elections in the law.

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    Re: Obama sees 'make or break' time for middle class

    No I am no joking. What have I said that I cannot back up with either the law itself or facts about the results of the law.

    YOu are being dishonest in the extreme. The people who were elected by the people ARE NO LONGER THE ACTUAL GOVERNMENT. The actual government, the one who holds ALL THE POWERS OF GOVERNMENT, both legislative and executive as well as many new powers normally NOT held by government, is the emergency manager. That is the local government. And the people most certainly DO NOT get to vote for them.

    Public Act #4 is very very clear about this.

    I taught high school government for over three decades. I am sensitive to the cement that holds our delicate system of representative government together... and that is the vote of the citizens for the government making decisions for them. That is the glue that holds it all together and gives it legitimacy. Once you remove that, you have no better than a dictatorship imposed upon the people against their will.

    The timeless wisdom of Niemoller seems to fit you and others perfectly

    First they came for the communists,
    and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a communist.

    Then they came for the trade unionists,
    and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a trade unionist.

    Then they came for the Jews,
    and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a Jew.

    Then they came for me
    and there was no one left to speak out for me.



    It is not your right to vote for your government that is lost - so you find excuses for it.
    It is not your community which has been taken over by the State against your will - so you attempt to downplay the significance of it.
    It is not a majority of your race which is the most impacted by this usurpation -so you look the other way.

    And then we still have Honest Abe spinning in Springfield as his own party destroyes the very concept of a government of the people, by the people and for the people.
    Last edited by haymarket; 12-11-11 at 07:16 PM.
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    Re: Obama sees 'make or break' time for middle class

    Quote Originally Posted by MrVicchio View Post
    Negative.

    Nope, see you don't even know what Obamacare will do. Not a shock really.




    No, you cannot.


    No, PEOPLE like free stuff. period. That's human nature.
    You are factually incorrect about EVERYTHING in this post. Except that people like free stuff. That's largely true.

    It's worthless to argue with someone who doesn't even begin from a fact-based perspective.

    Provide me the PROOF that under the healthcare act, that you are going to be forced to take one insurance policy and have no choice in what policy you take.

    Provide the proof of that and we can debate a point. Simply saying, "They tell you what to do" isn't proof of anything. You are making a false assertion and then responding, "Nuh-uh" as a retort when someone tells you that your assertion is wrong.

    Now, I shouldn't be surprised because this is basically the same debate tactic that is used by almost all of the presidential candidates being offered up by the right, so those who are beholden to voting for them would obviously pick up on those tactics.
    Last edited by FilmFestGuy; 12-11-11 at 07:23 PM.

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    Re: Obama sees 'make or break' time for middle class

    Quote Originally Posted by FilmFestGuy View Post
    You are factually incorrect about EVERYTHING in this post.
    No, you just cannot accept Obamacare is a horrible infliction of statism on the American people.
    Quote Originally Posted by FilmFestGuy View Post
    It's worthless to argue with someone who doesn't even begin from a fact-based perspective.
    Are you saying I shouldn't bother responding to you?
    Quote Originally Posted by FilmFestGuy View Post
    Provide me the PROOF that under the healthcare act, that you are going to be forced to take one insurance policy and have no choice in what policy you take.
    I never said ONE policy, I said you wouldn't be able to choose the policy that is right for you, you will be FORCED to take a policy, that has been decided by others.
    Quote Originally Posted by FilmFestGuy View Post
    Provide the proof of that and we can debate a point. Simply saying, "They tell you what to do" isn't proof of anything. You are making a false assertion and then responding, "Nuh-uh" as a retort when someone tells you that your assertion is wrong.
    Huh?
    You can either take the Obamacare mandated coverage or you can pay the IRS a "penalty" for refusing.
    Quote Originally Posted by FilmFestGuy View Post
    Now, I shouldn't be surprised because this is basically the same debate tactic that is used by almost all of the presidential candidates being offered up by the right, so those who are beholden to voting for them would obviously pick up on those tactics.
    What silly nonsense you write. I could say that those beholden to the Left are incapable of debating Obamacare honestly. But that would be just silly.
    Climate, changes. It takes a particularly uneducated population to buy into the idea that it's their fault climate is changing and further political solutions can fix it.



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    Re: Obama sees 'make or break' time for middle class

    Quote Originally Posted by MrVicchio View Post
    Huh?
    You can either take the Obamacare mandated coverage or you can pay the IRS a "penalty" for refusing.
    There is no *particular* coverage mandated. You just have to have *some* coverage that meets minimal requirements so that I don't have to pay for your medical care.

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