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Thread: Fukushima fuel rods may have completely melted

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    Re: Fukushima fuel rods may have completely melted

    Quote Originally Posted by BmanMcfly View Post
    No, the opposite. Because when there is a car wreck you can clean it up and there is no residual damages.

    Now, if everytime there was a car wreck you had to seal the accident in a block of lead infused concrete and buried for millions of years before returning to normal, THEN I might argue...

    Actually, that's a good idea... let's get nuclear powered cars on the road, there'd be less CO2 to worry about.
    Chernobyl had no CONTAINMENT, it was a disaster in the making from the day they decided to build it under a tin roof....American designs are way over built to protect the public. TMI was severely damaged, but the contamination did not escape to the outside, nobody had to abandon their homes and move away....
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    Re: Fukushima fuel rods may have completely melted

    Quote Originally Posted by rocket88 View Post
    That's the quandary. 98% of the time, nuclear is relatively safe. But that other 2% of the time is a real bitch. (Percentages are estimates, but you get the point.)
    If I had to choose between the very small chance of a few dozen people have their health adversely affected by a meltdown or thousands of people dying per year, I'd go with the former. You can point to the horrific dangers of a nuclear disaster, but where are your complaints when a coal mine collapses?
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    Re: Fukushima fuel rods may have completely melted

    Quote Originally Posted by UtahBill View Post
    Chernobyl had no CONTAINMENT, it was a disaster in the making from the day they decided to build it under a tin roof....American designs are way over built to protect the public. TMI was severely damaged, but the contamination did not escape to the outside, nobody had to abandon their homes and move away....
    TMI DID release to the outside... but nobody was evacuated.

    Here's the thing; while I'm not a doctor, I have listened to the positions of a number of doctors in the fields involving radiation. That's why I'm not 100% on the details, but the way that they determine radiation exposure is through EXTERNAL radiation. Your skin is designed to handle all but the worst of that, but you are only radiated while you are in contact and the stuff washes off.

    The difference is that ALOT of the environmental pollution winds up in your lungs, from the water, etc... including that "1.4mrems" that 2 million were exposed to, but a number of those people had the misfortune of eating or inhaling a "hot particle" and that 1.4 mRems becomes 1.4 mrems per hour until your body disposes of it in whichever way it can, meanwhile your internal organs are not designed for that kind of radioactive exposure and so are more easily affected. While 2million people were potentially exposed, the reality is there may have been 10-20 000 people who didn't just get a single hot particle, but a large dose who were then put into a higher exposure range beyond the capacity of their body to repair the damage due to their exposure and 10-20-30 years down they line they get a cancer that they would NEVER EVEN ASSOCIATE as being related.

    Quote Originally Posted by DrunkenAsparagus View Post
    If I had to choose between the very small chance of a few dozen people have their health adversely affected by a meltdown or thousands of people dying per year, I'd go with the former. You can point to the horrific dangers of a nuclear disaster, but where are your complaints when a coal mine collapses?
    Ya, a coal mine collapses 20-40 people are stuck in a hole for a few days (hopefully less than weeks), a few people don't make it unfortunately and they continue work once the conditions are returned to a safe place.

    Now, I couldn't handle that kind of work myself, short of being forced into it... but that's the kind of job where you simply have to accept the risks. Many welders, for example, have to give up their trade of 10-15 years because of the exposures they get. While it's individually unfortunate, we're all here temporarily, but life moves on.

    On the other hand, if we keep pumping contaminated soil and water from Fukushima into the oceans, well, you start getting additional exposure as that radioactive debris contaminates the life cycles of the ocean and we start eating from that supply of fish.

    Now, let's say there's a continuation of this recent trend of 1 disaster about every 25 years, where there's a high level of release... HOW LONG before the planet would have a background radiation of significant concern?? Once the radiation gets out into the atmosphere, like the cloud resulting from Chernobyl circled the earth for something like 4 years before the radiation was indistinguishable from the background.

    And in this case, there was a radioactive cloud after chernobyl that circled the earth at least twice, and is probably still going... meanwhile, the entirety of the reactors have melted down beyond the containment and into the earth, where, with any luck will not find another water supply and contaminate some underground waterways.... I'm pretty sure it's what they call "china syndrome", or maybe that's just the movie.

    To put into perspective, Fukushima was a VERY SERIOUS incident, but not earth ending, nothing to panic about, but not a trend that we should allow to continue. Since radiation takes so very long to decay.

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    Re: Fukushima fuel rods may have completely melted

    Quote Originally Posted by BmanMcfly
    Ya, a coal mine collapses 20-40 people are stuck in a hole for a few days (hopefully less than weeks), a few people don't make it unfortunately
    lolwut? Thousands of miners die from mine collapses annually.

    Here's an article I pulled out of my ass showing that 30,000 die from coal plant fine particle pollution annually in the United States alone.
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    Re: Fukushima fuel rods may have completely melted

    Quote Originally Posted by BmanMcfly
    Ya, a coal mine collapses 20-40 people are stuck in a hole for a few days (hopefully less than weeks), a few people don't make it unfortunately
    lolwut? Thousands of miners die from mine collapses annually.

    Here's an article I pulled out of my ass showing that 30,000 die from coal plant fine particle pollution annually in the United States alone.
    "I do not claim that every incident in the history of empire can be explained in directly economic terms. Economic interests are filtered through a political process, policies are implemented by a complex state apparatus, and the whole system generates its own momentum."

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    Re: Fukushima fuel rods may have completely melted

    Quote Originally Posted by BmanMcfly View Post
    TMI DID release to the outside... but nobody was evacuated.

    Here's the thing; while I'm not a doctor, I have listened to the positions of a number of doctors in the fields involving radiation. That's why I'm not 100% on the details, but the way that they determine radiation exposure is through EXTERNAL radiation. Your skin is designed to handle all but the worst of that, but you are only radiated while you are in contact and the stuff washes off.

    The difference is that ALOT of the environmental pollution winds up in your lungs, from the water, etc... including that "1.4mrems" that 2 million were exposed to, but a number of those people had the misfortune of eating or inhaling a "hot particle" and that 1.4 mRems becomes 1.4 mrems per hour until your body disposes of it in whichever way it can, meanwhile your internal organs are not designed for that kind of radioactive exposure and so are more easily affected. While 2million people were potentially exposed, the reality is there may have been 10-20 000 people who didn't just get a single hot particle, but a large dose who were then put into a higher exposure range beyond the capacity of their body to repair the damage due to their exposure and 10-20-30 years down they line they get a cancer that they would NEVER EVEN ASSOCIATE as being related.



    Ya, a coal mine collapses 20-40 people are stuck in a hole for a few days (hopefully less than weeks), a few people don't make it unfortunately and they continue work once the conditions are returned to a safe place.

    Now, I couldn't handle that kind of work myself, short of being forced into it... but that's the kind of job where you simply have to accept the risks. Many welders, for example, have to give up their trade of 10-15 years because of the exposures they get. While it's individually unfortunate, we're all here temporarily, but life moves on.

    On the other hand, if we keep pumping contaminated soil and water from Fukushima into the oceans, well, you start getting additional exposure as that radioactive debris contaminates the life cycles of the ocean and we start eating from that supply of fish.

    Now, let's say there's a continuation of this recent trend of 1 disaster about every 25 years, where there's a high level of release... HOW LONG before the planet would have a background radiation of significant concern?? Once the radiation gets out into the atmosphere, like the cloud resulting from Chernobyl circled the earth for something like 4 years before the radiation was indistinguishable from the background.

    And in this case, there was a radioactive cloud after chernobyl that circled the earth at least twice, and is probably still going... meanwhile, the entirety of the reactors have melted down beyond the containment and into the earth, where, with any luck will not find another water supply and contaminate some underground waterways.... I'm pretty sure it's what they call "china syndrome", or maybe that's just the movie.

    To put into perspective, Fukushima was a VERY SERIOUS incident, but not earth ending, nothing to panic about, but not a trend that we should allow to continue. Since radiation takes so very long to decay.
    Background radiation has already increased a lot due to all the nuclear weapons testing we did. The thing about radiation, most of it penetrates. That is how Xrays work. The depth of penetration varies, alpha radiation, for example, won't get past the skin, but if you inhale it, it becomes bad news. I don't know where you are getting your info, but you might study it a bit more. Radiation is not to be feared. It is like light, if you move away from the light, the intensity decreases by the distance squared, aka the inverse square law. Contamination is the issue, especially if you breathe it in. And to my knowledge there were no civilians harmed at TMI. Not that it matters, we aren't going to stop using the nukes we have and if we build any more, you can bet that all the lessons learned will be reflected in the way they are built...
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    Re: Fukushima fuel rods may have completely melted

    Quote Originally Posted by UtahBill View Post
    Background radiation has already increased a lot due to all the nuclear weapons testing we did. The thing about radiation, most of it penetrates. That is how Xrays work. The depth of penetration varies, alpha radiation, for example, won't get past the skin, but if you inhale it, it becomes bad news. I don't know where you are getting your info, but you might study it a bit more. Radiation is not to be feared. It is like light, if you move away from the light, the intensity decreases by the distance squared, aka the inverse square law. Contamination is the issue, especially if you breathe it in. And to my knowledge there were no civilians harmed at TMI. Not that it matters, we aren't going to stop using the nukes we have and if we build any more, you can bet that all the lessons learned will be reflected in the way they are built...
    I'm not living in FEAR of radiation.

    And I'm not disagreeing with what you're saying. But, you missed the point... if you have a grain of sand of some isotope that you inhale, the radioactive particle continues to emit radiation, from INSIDE the body. Like you said, it penetrates the skin... but if it's in your body it's radiating your organs directly and does so until your body excretes that particle in whichever way.

    Yes, 1.4 mrem is nothing, and even inhaling a particle emitting that little radiation would have no noticeable impact... HOWEVER, there are people that were probably exposed and inhaled MORE of those radioactive particles, that will 20 or so years later will push the cell damage to a point where it becomes cancerous, and you would never reasonably make the connection of the cause.

    Yes, nuclear generators are built better today than 40 years ago, I don't doubt it... but until the things are absolutely fool proof, well, there is a risk, and it very well COULD be something that could make the planet uninhabitable. Though that's really not something likely.

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    Re: Fukushima fuel rods may have completely melted

    Quote Originally Posted by BmanMcfly View Post
    I'm not living in FEAR of radiation.

    And I'm not disagreeing with what you're saying. But, you missed the point... if you have a grain of sand of some isotope that you inhale, the radioactive particle continues to emit radiation, from INSIDE the body. Like you said, it penetrates the skin... but if it's in your body it's radiating your organs directly and does so until your body excretes that particle in whichever way.

    Yes, 1.4 mrem is nothing, and even inhaling a particle emitting that little radiation would have no noticeable impact... HOWEVER, there are people that were probably exposed and inhaled MORE of those radioactive particles, that will 20 or so years later will push the cell damage to a point where it becomes cancerous, and you would never reasonably make the connection of the cause.

    Yes, nuclear generators are built better today than 40 years ago, I don't doubt it... but until the things are absolutely fool proof, well, there is a risk, and it very well COULD be something that could make the planet uninhabitable. Though that's really not something likely.
    Where are you going to get such a particle? and I mean you specifically....will you be visiting Chernobyl any time soon. There was a segment on TV a while back, return to Chernobyl or something like that. The people wore NO protection while walking around the town.
    You sound like you are living in fear....NOTHING is foolproof....Life is risky, we do what we can to reduce the risk, it is impossible to get perfect safety.
    Uninhabitable? There isn't enough of this stuff available to do that...
    There are so many other things that are making us sick that we willingly take into our bodies, beats me why some people obsess over just one.
    One of my sisters was complaining about the cost of milk once, as she was opening a carton of cigarettes.
    Does she expect the farmers to operate at a loss so she can enjoy smoking?
    What do YOU want the rest of us to do? Go without power so we might have a few less cases of cancer?
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    Re: Fukushima fuel rods may have completely melted

    Quote Originally Posted by Khayembii Communique View Post
    lolwut? Thousands of miners die from mine collapses annually.

    Here's an article I pulled out of my ass showing that 30,000 die from coal plant fine particle pollution annually in the United States alone.
    Whatever the number is, but someone taking on a mining job KNOWS that it's a risky job, riskier than I had imagined, but still...

    The point is that there is not a huge detriment to the environment as a whole... when it's individual injuries, not in the same way that you're talking about when you're talking about excesses of radiation that results from catastrophic problems at nuclear plants.

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    Re: Fukushima fuel rods may have completely melted

    The point is that there is not a huge detriment to the environment as a whole...
    Erm, I don't think you read my post. At all.
    "I do not claim that every incident in the history of empire can be explained in directly economic terms. Economic interests are filtered through a political process, policies are implemented by a complex state apparatus, and the whole system generates its own momentum."

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