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Seattle Reverses Ban on “Buy American”

It's an inefficient allocation of resources, which can reduce our standard of living.
No thanks, not interested.

It is not an inefficient allocation of resources.



That same Chinese person has a lower standard of living and has not enjoyed all the governmental and other social benefits that the average American has.
They can compete in other areas, because price isn't the only important thing.

If price wasn't the only important thing then they wouldn't oppose higher tariffs.
 
If it doesn't matter then you should have no problem stating whether or not we import more from China than what we export in goods and value to China or Vice Versa .

It is immaterial.
It does not account for other forms of trade, not based on physical goods.
If anything, it is an incomplete picture of what is actually happening.
 
It is not an inefficient allocation of resources.

If China can make steel more cost efficiently than we could, but we restrict or artificially raise the cost of their steel, then domestic firms would have to spend more for the same product or have to buy steel from a more expensive domestic firm.
Thus rolling the unnecessary increased cost into the item, requiring consumers to pay more for the same product, all the satisfy the whims of some economic illiterates.

If price wasn't the only important thing then they wouldn't oppose higher tariffs.

Incorrect.
Artificially raising prices and bailing out domestic businesses is still wrong.
 
How so? Buying more American made goods increases demanded for more American made goods.That puts more money in the pockets of real American companies and that increased demand for more American made goods will entice real American companies to hire more employees to make goods in order to meet the demand.

It's not that simple. If you make Americans buy just things made in America, then we have to produce all of our own stuff. This means that capital and labor that could have been used for more productive purposes now has to go toward manufacturing buttons or oven mitts instead of things that could provide Americans with far greater returns. Free trade allows each country to specialize its economy to focus on what it is best at. Think about it, you probably wouldn't want to be forced to live in the woods and make everything yourself. You might be quite good at building furniture and hunting, but it is far easier to rely on other people to provide you with goods and services in exchange for the money you make doing your job. The same principle applies to countries.

A pretty huge ****en difference between 33 and half cents and hour for 80 hours a week for a Chinese worker verses an American making minimum wage or more for only 40 hours a week. What American company can compete with that?

There is still an improvement. Why do you think China's middle class is growing. It takes time for everyone to experience the benefits of economic growth when a country is lifting itself out of poverty. Even then, cost is only one of many factors associated with choosing labor or investments. The real draw is return on investment. Right now, Americans are some of the most productive workers in the world. Unemployment remained pretty steady since the wave of globalization swept the world.
 
It's not that simple. If you make Americans buy just things made in America, then we have to produce all of our own stuff.
You make that sound like it is a bad thing.We should make our own goods.


This means that capital and labor that could have been used for more productive purposes now has to go toward manufacturing buttons or oven mitts instead of things that could provide Americans with far greater returns.
Seeing how people all across the US had to take lower paying jobs and we have a high unemployment rate, those lower wage jobs will not be missed.
Free trade allows each country to specialize its economy to focus on what it is best at. Think about it, you probably wouldn't want to be forced to live in the woods and make everything yourself.
Not even comparable.


There is still an improvement. Why do you think China's middle class is growing.
Because ours is shrinking.
It takes time for everyone to experience the benefits of economic growth when a country is lifting itself out of poverty.

We should not lift other countries out of poverty at the expense of Americans.
 
If China can make steel more cost efficiently than we could, but we restrict or artificially raise the cost of their steel, then domestic firms would have to spend more for the same product or have to buy steel from a more expensive domestic firm.
Thus rolling the unnecessary increased cost into the item, requiring consumers to pay more for the same product, all the satisfy the whims of some economic illiterates.



Incorrect.
Artificially raising prices and bailing out domestic businesses is still wrong.

Imposing tariffs does not bail out business, it levels the playing field so that American businesses can actually compete with out drastically cutting corners on the products they make.This encourages manufacturing in the US.
 
Imposing tariffs does not bail out business, it levels the playing field so that American businesses can actually compete with out drastically cutting corners on the products they make.This encourages manufacturing in the US.

Americans can easily level the playing field though technology, a better educated work force, exploiting their natural resources, reducing debt and balancing their budget, gaining control of unions, greater States rights and more competition between States, streamlining taxes, and removing some of the strangling regulations that inhibit Americans from competing.

It is not foreign competition that is damaging America, it is America itself.
 
Americans can easily level the playing field though technology,
Anything that can be produced in the US can be exported.Anything that can be communicated over a phone can be outsourced. I am surprised school haven't replaced teachers with foreign teachers teaching from Skype.

a better educated work force, exploiting their natural resources, reducing debt and balancing their budget, gaining control of unions,greater States rights and more competition between States, streamlining taxes, and removing some of the strangling regulations that inhibit Americans from competing.

Doing these things will not change the fact that you can pay workers in other countries next to nothing.

It is not foreign competition that is damaging America, it is America itself.

Is is politicians sticking their tongues up the assholes of business to toss their salad for votes that is damaging this county.Its why jobs outsourced left and right.
 
Is is politicians sticking their tongues up the assholes of business to toss their salad for votes that is damaging this county.Its why jobs outsourced left and right.

This is just another example of why Americans have to completely overhaul their educational system. This low level of response is not a one off but has become commonplace among far too many Americans.

How can Americans compete with anyone when they are turning out people like this?
 
You make that sound like it is a bad thing.We should make our own goods.

For the reasons that I brought up, we should only make what our own goods to the extent that it is efficient to do so.

Seeing how people all across the US had to take lower paying jobs and we have a high unemployment rate, those lower wage jobs will not be missed.

If unemployment or low wages is the problem, why don't we just pay people to dig up holes and fill them back up again?

Not even comparable.

They are essentially the same thing. Both you and the country would be forced to do everything by yourselves. America's production possibilities have a limit. Free trade helps us expand this limit and produce more things. In attacking free trade, you attack some of the most basic capitalist principles that you claim to support.

Because ours is shrinking.
Statistics about income inequality and the "destruction of the middle class" are often very misleading and don't give us the full picture. Even if we do ignore this argument, the increasing gulf between rich and poor has very little to do with outsourcing. Outsourcing has not really affected wages or unemployment that much in the past 30 years.

We should not lift other countries out of poverty at the expense of Americans.

It isn't at our expense. It's to our mutual benefit
 
Imposing tariffs does not bail out business, it levels the playing field so that American businesses can actually compete with out drastically cutting corners on the products they make.This encourages manufacturing in the US.

What do you think tariffs do? They direct money toward businesses that wouldn't have it without state intervention. If that's not a bailout, what is?
 
Not to rain on your parade boys but since when is protectionism a "conservative" value? Whatever happened to free trade, supply and demand, and the invisible hand?

Whoa - Just asking Americans to buy American is protectionism? Please explain. I happen to call it job creation if Americans decide to make a CHOICE to buy American.
 
Imposing tariffs does not bail out business, it levels the playing field so that American businesses can actually compete with out drastically cutting corners on the products they make.This encourages manufacturing in the US.

The U.S. already has an overt advantage in most other areas, so it's not leveling anything, in fact quite the opposite.
Americans in general are better educated, healthier, richer, etc. than most Chinese.

In this instance, it's just a bailout of American businesses, who can't compete.
Those inferior sheep need to "culled."
 
Whoa - Just asking Americans to buy American is protectionism? Please explain. I happen to call it job creation if Americans decide to make a CHOICE to buy American.

Yes that is entirely protectionism.
You're robbing Peter to pay Paul, whilst calling it "job creation."

Jobs are a means, not an end to themselves.
People and businesses need to being doing things that are productive towards humanity, within their greatest benefit and in the most efficient way.
Cutting off efficiencies, just to employ Americans in certain sectors is inefficient and unproductive.
 
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This is just another example of why Americans have to completely overhaul their educational system. This low level of response is not a one off but has become commonplace among far too many Americans.

How can Americans compete with anyone when they are turning out people like this?

How can American companies compete against those in China that pay their workers 33 and half cents an hour for 80 hours a week? You seem to ignore this fact. All the education in the world will not prevent a company from outsourcing.
 
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For the reasons that I brought up, we should only make what our own goods to the extent that it is efficient to do so.

You did not list any real reason why making our own goods is a bad thing.


If unemployment or low wages is the problem, why don't we just pay people to dig up holes and fill them back up again?

Digging holes and filling them back up is a waste.
They are essentially the same thing.

No they are not.
Both you and the country would be forced to do everything by yourselves. America's production possibilities have a limit.

Again there is nothing wrong with making out own goods.We should make our own goods.
Free trade helps us expand this limit and produce more things.
The only thing free trade does is take jobs away from Americans and give them to people in other countries for significantly lesser pay.
In attacking free trade, you attack some of the most basic capitalist principles that you claim to support.

I do not support unrestricted capitalism.Unrestricted capitalism is how we have slavery, companies dumping waste into rivers and all sorts of other immoral ****.

Statistics about income inequality and the "destruction of the middle class" are often very misleading and don't give us the full picture. Even if we do ignore this argument, the increasing gulf between rich and poor has very little to do with outsourcing. Outsourcing has not really affected wages or unemployment that much in the past 30 years.

It doesn't take a genius to figure out that someone will get poorer if you take the job they were making decent amount of money at and ship it to another country and as a result that person has to take a lower paying job.

It isn't at our expense. It's to our mutual benefit

The US being at the mercy of other countries for goods and services is not to our benefit.Americans having to work at Wal-mart or some other low paying job because their decent paying factory job out sourced is not to our benefit of Americans.Increasing the amount of money that China has so it can build up its military even more at the expense of American jobs is not to our benifit.
 
How can American companies compete against those in China that pay their workers 33 and half cents an hour for 80 hours a week? You seem to ignore this fact. All the education in the world will not prevent a company from outsourcing.

Cheapness is not the only factor when considering the purchase of labor. The main desire is for return on investment. Would I rather put in $5 and get $10 back or put in $15 and get $50 back? America's workers are some of the most productive in the world, giving our country a distinct advantage in China in most areas.
 
What do you think tariffs do?

Tariffs are a tax.Taxes go towards paying for roads,schools, military,and other tax payer funded services.
Tariffs also ensure that American companies can fairly compete.

They direct money toward businesses that wouldn't have it without state intervention.

Removing a tariff requires state intervention just as much as imposing tariffs do. Instead of directing money towards American businesses you basically support directing that money towards China,India and any country that American jobs are outsourced to.

If that's not a bailout, what is?

It is not a bailout.
 
You did not list any real reason why making our own goods is a bad thing.

I spelled it out pretty quickly. It is inefficient to do everything instead of focusing on what we are best at.


Digging holes and filling them back up is a waste.

So is propping up industries that can't compete on their own.

No they are not.

Yes they are. Instead of utilizing the division of labor to its fullest potential, you are drawing an arbitrary line at the border. Would Pennsylvania setting up a tariffs help the Pennsylvanian economy?

Again there is nothing wrong with making out own goods.We should make our own goods.

Why? It's no more efficient or conducive to job growth.

The only thing free trade does is take jobs away from Americans and give them to people in other countries for significantly lesser pay.

Creative destruction. Just because something goes away does not mean that there is nothing to take its place. As more and more Americans are not tied up in manufacturing there is more human capital freed up to do things in other sectors.

I do not support unrestricted capitalism.Unrestricted capitalism is how we have slavery, companies dumping waste into rivers and all sorts of other immoral ****.

Of course government has some place, but you are attacking the very foundations of capitalism when you make these arguments.

It doesn't take a genius to figure out that someone will get poorer if you take the job they were making decent amount of money at and ship it to another country and as a result that person has to take a lower paying job.

It might look like that, but people here get new jobs. The transition isn't often easy, but it will still benefit the country as a whole and probably that person in the long run as well.

The US being at the mercy of other countries for goods and services is not to our benefit.Americans having to work at Wal-mart or some other low paying job because their decent paying factory job out sourced is not to our benefit of Americans.Increasing the amount of money that China has so it can build up its military even more at the expense of American jobs is not to our benifit.

This is one of the silliest arguments against free trade. International trade has done more to prevent international conflict than all of the nuclear weapons, treaties, US hegemonic power combined. Why would two economies attack each other if they were economically dependent on each other?
 
Yep, no one on mainstreet has ever reaped any benefit what so ever due to the various trade agreements that have been in place which have lead to an influx of extremely cheap items for sale....

...also, I have apparently imagined the legions of people entering into Walmarts on a daily basis scooping up clothes, house hold items, toys, food, and other things for low prices which allows them to buy more of what they need. Either that or they're all actually CEO's, just proving that even CEO's can have really, really bad butt cracks.

The reason you see them so much is they're buying ANOTHER cheap piece of crap to replace the one they bought just recently.

If it was cheap QUALITY goods you might have a point. But most aren't worth the bargain basement price that is all Americans can AFFORD to pay.
 
Cheapness is not the only factor when considering the purchase of labor. The main desire is for return on investment. Would I rather put in $5 and get $10 back or put in $15 and get $50 back?

I am sure that if some of these companies had it their way they would outsource to countries that permitted slavery instead of just paying workers next to nothing.


America's workers are some of the most productive in the world, giving our country a distinct advantage in China in most areas.
Productivity doesn't mean squat if it can be easily outsourced to another country.
 
Tariffs are a tax.Taxes go towards paying for roads,schools, military,and other tax payer funded services.

They also ensure that a greater amount of money will go toward certain, favored industries.

Tariffs also ensure that American companies can fairly compete.

What do you consider fair?

Removing a tariff requires state intervention just as much as imposing tariffs do.


Are you serious? So by this logic any removal of stat intervention is state intervention. Well I guess we shouldn't lower income tax rates. Those are also taxes.

Instead of directing money towards American businesses you basically support directing that money towards China,India and any country that American jobs are outsourced to.

Removal of the tariff does not direct money anywhere. Consumers get to decide where to spend their money

It is not a bailout.

Using government force to direct money toward certain industries that otherwise would not be able to compete is by definition a bailout. You can say that it is justified, but all you are doing now is playing a semantics game.
 
If China can make steel more cost efficiently than we could, but we restrict or artificially raise the cost of their steel, then domestic firms would have to spend more for the same product or have to buy steel from a more expensive domestic firm.
Thus rolling the unnecessary increased cost into the item, requiring consumers to pay more for the same product, all the satisfy the whims of some economic illiterates.



Incorrect.
Artificially raising prices and bailing out domestic businesses is still wrong.

Pretty sure steel isn't a good example. Chinese steel made from in-country ores is physically inferior to that made from north american ores.

There used to be laws preventing export of ore and scrap to China for this reason.

As someone who has worked as a mechanic, you don't want Chinese made tools. Busted knuckles galore.
 
I am sure that if some of these companies had it their way they would outsource to countries that permitted slavery instead of just paying workers next to nothing.

If a person decides to take a job at their own free will that is not slavery. Furthermore, these people are generally making more than what they did before. Calling this slavery is nothing but asinine

Productivity doesn't mean squat if it can be easily outsourced to another country.

By this logic, any product or service that doesn't have a tariff on it would mean that every American job used for producing it would be exported to some other low wage country. The historical unemployment data simply does not bare this out.
 
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I spelled it out pretty quickly. It is inefficient to do everything instead of focusing on what we are best at.
Goods being made in America would not be us doing everything.

So is propping up industries that can't compete on their own.

It is not propping up industries.

Yes they are. Instead of utilizing the division of labor to its fullest potential, you are drawing an arbitrary line at the border.
You can't have everyone doing the same labor.You can't have everyone be doctors or everyone be policemen.Getting American businesses to stay in America and make goods in American is not having everyone in the country make goods.

Would Pennsylvania setting up a tariffs help the Pennsylvanian economy?

Pennsylvania is a individual state.The whole country would have to set up tariffs in order to help out the economy.

Why? It's no more efficient or conducive to job growth.

Companies require employes to fuction,so yes companies making goods in America does help with job growth and the economy.

Creative destruction. Just because something goes away does not mean that there is nothing to take its place. As more and more Americans are not tied up in manufacturing there is more human capital freed up to do things in other sectors

We have high unemployment.All Americans would not be tied up in Manufacturing as you keep falsely claiming.

Of course government has some place, but you are attacking the very foundations of capitalism when you make these arguments.

Again I am not for unrestricted capitalism.

It might look like that, but people here get new jobs. The transition isn't often easy, but it will still benefit the country as a whole and probably that person in the long run as well.

Americans taking a pay cut is not a benefit.


Why would two economies attack each other if they were economically dependent on each other?
Letting companies outsource to countries so they can pay workers next to nothing does not make us economically dependent on China. If China did something to piss the US off enough for us to cut ties or we pissed China off enough for China to cut ties with us then all those jobs would end up going to a country that is not one of China's allies or back to the US.
 
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