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Thread: Seattle Reverses Ban on “Buy American”

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    Re: Seattle Reverses Ban on “Buy American”

    Quote Originally Posted by danarhea View Post
    Whoa - Just asking Americans to buy American is protectionism? Please explain. I happen to call it job creation if Americans decide to make a CHOICE to buy American.
    Buy American is simply the slogan for a much larger protectionist campaign that entails The American Jobs act. You do realize this correct? Simply putting "choice" in big bold letters does not do away with the fact that you're "asking" Americans to support clear cut protectionism. Here I'll point it out for you where you did it:

    Quote Originally Posted by danarhea
    It is up to us. Simply buying American made products will not only end the recession, but strengthen America's economic future. If we cannot give a little back to America by buying it's products instead of Chinese ones, then we deserve everything that happens to us.
    As much as I support government regulation and see the importance of government in the market, I can't really support blatant protectionism.
    Last edited by Hatuey; 12-06-11 at 10:38 PM.
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    Re: Seattle Reverses Ban on “Buy American”

    Quote Originally Posted by DrunkenAsparagus View Post
    If a person decides to take a job at their own free will that is not slavery.
    It is taking extreme advantage of someone.

    Furthermore, these people are generally making more than what they did before.
    Oh yes twice as next to nothing.

    Calling this slavery is nothing but asinine
    Seeing how these people are making next to nothing they are just a step above slaves.

    By this logic, any product or service that doesn't have a tariff on it would mean that every American job used for producing it would be exported to some other low wage country. The historical unemployment data simply does not bare this out.
    I bet these people thought their jobs were safe.

    Study: Outsourcing tech jobs a plus - Business - msnbc.com
    "A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banner openly. But the traitor moves amongst those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the alleys, heard in the very halls of government itself. For the traitor appears not a traitor; he speaks in accents familiar to his victims, and he wears their face and their arguments, he appeals to the baseness that lies deep in the hearts of all men. He rots the soul of a nation, he works secretly and unknown in the night to undermine the pillars of the city, he infects the body politic so that it can no longer resist. A murder is less to fear"

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    Re: Seattle Reverses Ban on “Buy American”

    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
    Goods being made in America would not be us doing everything.

    Yes it would be. If all goods and services were made here, what foreign goods would we use?

    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
    It is not propping up industries.

    Yes they do. That's why you want tariffs in the first place!! You might not want to phrase it like that, but that's what tariffs do. They would not be making as much money without the tariffs

    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
    You can't have everyone doing the same labor.You can't have everyone be doctors or everyone be policemen.Getting American businesses to stay in America and make goods in American is not having everyone in the country make goods.

    People are re-trainable. The transition can be painful for some, but in the long run far more people are helped by greater prosperity.

    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
    Pennsylvania is a individual state.The whole country would have to set up tariffs in order to help out the economy.

    That does not answer my question. Would it help or hurt PA?

    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
    Companies require employes to fuction,so yes companies making goods in America does help with job growth and the economy.

    Outsourcing doesn't mean that no new ones pop up. There isn't a fixed number of jobs out there. Creative destruction!

    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
    We have high unemployment.
    The high unemployment has nothing to do with free trade or outsourcing. It was a housing bubble.

    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
    All Americans would not be tied up in Manufacturing as you keep falsely claiming.

    That's brings up a problem with protectionism. Why shouldn't economies become more efficient by specializing things?

    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
    Again I am not for unrestricted capitalism.

    You are not going against just unfettered capitalism. Many of your arguments attack the most basic arguments for a market-based economy. At bst you are drawing an arbitrary exception to division of labor, trade for mutual benefit, and the benefits of exchanging goods.

    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
    Americans taking a pay cut is not a benefit.

    In the long term they don't have to. Free trade increases both our prosperity. Investors go to American workers and poor workers in the Developing world for different reasons.

    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
    Letting companies outsource to countries so they can pay workers next to nothing does not make us economically dependent on China. If China did something to piss the US off enough for us to cut ties or we pissed China off enough for China to cut ties with us then all those jobs would end up going to a country that is not one of China's allies or back to the US.
    China is just as dependent on us. Why would the y want to piss off one of their largest foreign markets? If leaders have less to lose from conflict, the possibility for conflict will increase.
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    Re: Seattle Reverses Ban on “Buy American”

    Quote Originally Posted by What if...? View Post
    Pretty sure steel isn't a good example. Chinese steel made from in-country ores is physically inferior to that made from north american ores.

    There used to be laws preventing export of ore and scrap to China for this reason.

    As someone who has worked as a mechanic, you don't want Chinese made tools. Busted knuckles galore.
    Someone wants it enough and that's why they are making and selling it.
    It doesn't matter if you like it or not, only that someone else wants it enough to pay for it.
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
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    Re: Seattle Reverses Ban on “Buy American”

    Quote Originally Posted by DrunkenAsparagus View Post
    Yes it would be. If all goods and services were made here, what foreign goods would we use?
    We making our own goods would not stop people from buying foreign made goods.No one said we should stop importing goods.

    Yes they do. That's why you want tariffs in the first place!! You might not want to phrase it like that, but that's what tariffs do. They would not be making as much money without the tariffs
    Again raising tariffs does not prop up American industries any more than removing tariffs props up Chinese and Indian companies.

    People are re-trainable. The transition can be painful for some, but in the long run far more people are helped by greater prosperity.
    Making lower wages is not make greater prosperity.

    That does not answer my question. Would it help or hurt PA?
    It does answer your question. Unless all the states enacted tariffs it would not help any individual state.

    Outsourcing doesn't mean that no new ones pop up
    .

    Nice to see that you admit that,although it does contradict your claim it creates greater prosperity.This is why any patriotic American should be against outsourcing. Its because outsourcing does not always create jobs and even if it does create jobs those jobs are most likely lower paying jobs.

    There isn't a fixed number of jobs out there. Creative destruction!
    Not sure that has anything to do with the fact increased demand for American goods means that companies will have to hire more employees to meet the demand.


    The high unemployment has nothing to do with free trade or outsourcing.
    Lets see your job goes to China, you are now out of work.So yes outsourcing does effect employment.

    It was a housing bubble.
    Most people do not work in construction,real-estate or work in factories that makes building supplies.

    That's brings up a problem with protectionism. Why shouldn't economies become more efficient by specializing things?
    What do we ship to china that Chinese can not already make there on their own or import from somewhere else?



    In the long term they don't have to. Free trade increases both our prosperity. Investors go to American workers and poor workers in the Developing world for different reasons.
    Free trade just means that it is actually more profitable for a company to outsource to a country where they can pay people next to nothing and ship goods back to the US. This results in Americans losing their jobs and having to take lower paying jobs.

    China is just as dependent on us.
    So you are saying that we export to china the same amount of goods and value that we import from China?

    Why would the y want to piss off one of their largest foreign markets?If leaders have less to lose from conflict, the possibility for conflict will increase.
    China has 1,339,724,852 people. They are not going to hurt if we stop buying their goods.
    "A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banner openly. But the traitor moves amongst those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the alleys, heard in the very halls of government itself. For the traitor appears not a traitor; he speaks in accents familiar to his victims, and he wears their face and their arguments, he appeals to the baseness that lies deep in the hearts of all men. He rots the soul of a nation, he works secretly and unknown in the night to undermine the pillars of the city, he infects the body politic so that it can no longer resist. A murder is less to fear"

    Cicero Marcus Tullius

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    Re: Seattle Reverses Ban on “Buy American”

    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
    We making our own goods would not stop people from buying foreign made goods.No one said we should stop importing goods.
    You aren't forcing the choice of product, but you are forcing consumers to pay higher prices for certain products. The simple law of demand says that higher prices means fewer buyers. This means that more goods will be produced in the United States. This does not mean that we have more jobs. It just means that capital and labor that could have been more efficiently used elsewhere will then be used on other things.

    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
    Again raising tariffs does not prop up American industries any more than removing tariffs props up Chinese and Indian companies.
    So people making choices in a free market is propping up? With tariffs the government is distorting incentives to make more people respond to an incentive. Lowering tariffs allows people to respond to the actual market price. By your logic, should we prop up any industry that the government feels is important?

    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
    Making lower wages is not make greater prosperity.
    Who said anything about lower wages?

    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
    It does answer your question. Unless all the states enacted tariffs it would not help any individual state.
    How would cutting off markets for exports help PA?

    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
    Nice to see that you admit that,although it does contradict your claim it creates greater prosperity.This is why any patriotic American should be against outsourcing. Its because outsourcing does not always create jobs and even if it does create jobs those jobs are most likely lower paying jobs.
    I admitted nothing that I wasn't already saying. There not being a fixed amount of jobs in a particular sector means nothing with regards to economic prosperity. It just means that when a job is outsourced, that doesn't mean there is no more use for the worker whose job was outsourced. The economy is very dynamic thing, and all tariffs do is prop up industries that could not make it on their own. It doesn't hinders change within the economy by distorting incentives.

    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
    Not sure that has anything to do with the fact increased demand for American goods means that companies will have to hire more employees to meet the demand.
    Jobs are different from overall economic prosperity. If they were the same thing it would be best to dig holes and fill them back up again. You criticize this as inefficient, but you support other inefficient jobs programs.

    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
    Lets see your job goes to China, you are now out of work.So yes outsourcing does effect employment.
    Then there is more capital and labor available to be invested in the service industry, agriculture, or something else. People aren't just robots on an assembly line.

    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
    Most people do not work in construction,real-estate or work in factories that makes building supplies.
    Usually the stock market crashing has negative effects on employment in most sectors.

    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
    What do we ship to china that Chinese can not already make there on their own or import from somewhere else?

    What do you give to the cashier in the supermarket? We give them capital.

    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
    Free trade just means that it is actually more profitable for a company to outsource to a country where they can pay people next to nothing and ship goods back to the US. This results in Americans losing their jobs and having to take lower paying jobs.
    Jobs =/= prosperity Of course we want to reduce unemployment, but we cannot sacrifice every other aspect of our living standards to end it. The Soviet Union never had problems with unemployment, because they placed more emphasis on that than higher living standards for everyone.

    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
    So you are saying that we export to china the same amount of goods and value that we import from China?

    No, I'm saying that the Chinese do not want to lose their largest market. It would be like Wal-Mart trying to attack their customers.

    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
    China has 1,339,724,852 people. They are not going to hurt if we stop buying their goods.
    So you are saying that international trade has had nothing to do with China's recent or future economic success?
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    Re: Seattle Reverses Ban on “Buy American”

    Quote Originally Posted by DrunkenAsparagus View Post
    You aren't forcing the choice of product, but you are forcing consumers to pay higher prices for certain products. The simple law of demand says that higher prices means fewer buyers.
    People bought foreign goods before WTO,NAFTA,KAFTA and other acronyms that caused companies to outsource left and right.

    This means that more goods will be produced in the United States. This does not mean that we have more jobs.
    This does to mean more jobs because companies will have to hire more people to meet the demand for the goods it produces.

    So people making choices in a free market is propping up? With tariffs the government is distorting incentives to make more people respond to an incentive. Lowering tariffs allows people to respond to the actual market price. By your logic, should we prop up any industry that the government feels is important?
    Regardless if tariffs are raised,lowered or abolished it is still an act of government interference. Removing or lowering tariffs benefits foreign countries and companies and directs money towards their pockets.Raising tariffs benefits American companies and it directs money towards their pockets.



    Who said anything about lower wages?
    You claimed outsourcing will make more people benefit from greater prosperity.Wages are tied in with prosperity.


    How would cutting off markets for exports help PA?
    This wasn't about cutting off markets.



    It just means that when a job is outsourced, that doesn't mean there is no more use for the worker whose job was outsourced.
    It just means the worker will have to take a lesser paying job


    The economy is very dynamic thing, and all tariffs do is prop up industries that could not make it on their own. It doesn't hinders change within the economy by distorting incentives.
    Tariffs do not prop up American companies anymore than removing tariffs props up Chinese companies.


    Jobs are different from overall economic prosperity. If they were the same thing it would be best to dig holes and fill them back up again. You criticize this as inefficient, but you support other inefficient jobs programs.
    There is nothing inefficient about American companies producing goods.American companies producing goods employs Americans, makes sure tax dollars stay here in the US, and ensures that we are not at the mercy of any other country for goods.


    Then there is more capital and labor available to be invested in the service industry, agriculture, or something else. People aren't just robots on an assembly line.
    Many of those jobs do not pay squat.
    Usually the stock market crashing has negative effects on employment in most sectors.
    Only if that person's job is tied to the company whose stock crashed.



    What do you give to the cashier in the supermarket? We give them capital.
    This has nothing to do with outsourcing.


    Jobs =/= prosperity Of course we want to reduce unemployment, but we cannot sacrifice every other aspect of our living standards to end it. The Soviet Union never had problems with unemployment, because they placed more emphasis on that than higher living standards for everyone.
    You so desperate to grasp at straws you are now making a comparison to the Soviet Union.

    No, I'm saying that the Chinese do not want to lose their largest market. It would be like Wal-Mart trying to attack their customers.
    So you are saying that international trade has had nothing to do with China's recent or future economic success?


    China can find other customers. The US after all is a country of 307 million people. Out of the 5 billion plus other people on the planet and 1,338,299,500 Chinese I am pretty sure China can replace as customers should they stop selling to the US.
    "A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banner openly. But the traitor moves amongst those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the alleys, heard in the very halls of government itself. For the traitor appears not a traitor; he speaks in accents familiar to his victims, and he wears their face and their arguments, he appeals to the baseness that lies deep in the hearts of all men. He rots the soul of a nation, he works secretly and unknown in the night to undermine the pillars of the city, he infects the body politic so that it can no longer resist. A murder is less to fear"

    Cicero Marcus Tullius

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    Re: Seattle Reverses Ban on “Buy American”

    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
    People bought foreign goods before WTO,NAFTA,KAFTA and other acronyms that caused companies to outsource left and right.
    I didn't say that tariffs stopped international trade altogether, but they do reduce it and its benefits

    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
    This does to mean more jobs because companies will have to hire more people to meet the demand for the goods it produces.
    Yes it does.

    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
    Regardless if tariffs are raised,lowered or abolished it is still an act of government interference. Removing or lowering tariffs benefits foreign countries and companies and directs money towards their pockets.Raising tariffs benefits American companies and it directs money towards their pockets.
    I haven't seen you take a similar stand in the countless other economic threads on here. By this logic we should keep all government regulations, taxes, and programs in place. This is something that I know you don't advocate. Fine though, given the option of allowing the government to make a very brief intervention in the market, stop its interference quickly, and allowing the free market to work or continuing the interference in the future, I'll pick the latter. You havea very bizarre definition of "propping up."

    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
    You claimed outsourcing will make more people benefit from greater prosperity.Wages are tied in with prosperity.
    And long term, free trade means higher wages from more production.

    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
    This wasn't about cutting off markets.
    If other states put up their own tariffs, what do you think is going to happen to PA's out-of-state markets?

    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
    It just means the worker will have to take a lesser paying job
    No it doesn't. It just means they won't have a job propped up by consumers.

    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
    Tariffs do not prop up American companies anymore than removing tariffs props up Chinese companies.
    This doesn't make any sense. How does allowing prices to be equal to supply demand constitute propping up? Propping up means that the government is taking specific action to ensure cash flows to that company despite market forces. Removing a tax on something doesn't act against market forces. The market is already favoring Chinese factories. Therefore the government is not counteracting anything when they remove tariffs.

    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
    There is nothing inefficient about American companies producing goods.American companies producing goods employs Americans, makes sure tax dollars stay here in the US, and ensures that we are not at the mercy of any other country for goods.
    It's inefficient when we have to produce all of our own stuff. Again, you rely on division of labor. There's no reason why this doesn't scale up to countries.

    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
    Many of those jobs do not pay squat.
    Many do.

    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
    Only if that person's job is tied to the company whose stock crashed.
    And when those companies crashed, they helped bring down the other ones. The most obvious way this happened was the collapse of credit and refusal for many businesses to loan. Go ahead, james, show me all of the unemployment data and when it spiked. I'll give you hint, it started around the same time as the worse financial panic since 1929.

    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
    This has nothing to do with outsourcing.
    It's the same exact concept. You are only complaining about it, because there is a border in the way.

    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
    You so desperate to grasp at straws you are now making a comparison to the Soviet Union.
    You are the one talking about the importance of jobs being more important than efficiency


    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
    China can find other customers. The US after all is a country of 307 million people. Out of the 5 billion plus other people on the planet and 1,338,299,500 Chinese I am pretty sure China can replace as customers should they stop selling to the US.
    It doesn't work like that. You are showing ignorance of the most basic laws of economics, supply and demand. If other people wanted the goods going to America and there was not enough of the production to satisfy their demand, prices would go up. Producers would be attracted by these rising prices and the promise of profits, and they would step up production. The Chinese always have the option of making more money, but they don't make the same amount by wiping out one of their biggest customers.

    James, read a freaking textbook before you comment more.
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    Re: Seattle Reverses Ban on “Buy American”

    Quote Originally Posted by DrunkenAsparagus View Post
    I didn't say that tariffs stopped international trade altogether, but they do reduce it and its benefits.
    But you were trying to imply that people would stop buying foreign goods.




    I haven't seen you take a similar stand in the countless other economic threads on here. By this logic we should keep all government regulations, taxes, and programs in place. This is something that I know you don't advocate. Fine though, given the option of allowing the government to make a very brief intervention in the market, stop its interference quickly, and allowing the free market to work or continuing the interference in the future, I'll pick the latter. You havea very bizarre definition of "propping up."
    What does this have to do with you trying to imply earlier that removing or reducing tariffs is not government intervention that puts money into the pockets of Chines companies therefor not a bailout, but increasing tariffs is somehow government intervention that puts money into the pockets of American businesses and therefor a bailout?

    And long term, free trade means higher wages from more production.
    Production in China isn't going to give someone whose job was outsourced higher wages.

    If other states put up their own tariffs, what do you think is going to happen to PA's out-of-state markets?
    If all the states did it would help their out of state markets.

    No it doesn't.
    YEs it does.


    It just means they won't have a job propped up by consumers.
    It means the Chinese will have jobs propped up by consumers.


    This doesn't make any sense. How does allowing prices to be equal to supply demand constitute propping up? Propping up means that the government is taking specific action to ensure cash flows to that company despite market forces. Removing a tax on something doesn't act against market forces. The market is already favoring Chinese factories. Therefore the government is not counteracting anything when they remove tariffs.
    Government intervention is required either way.You remove or reduce tariffs then companies in Foreign countries benefit due o the government interference. If you increase the tariffs enough then the companies in the US benefit due to government interference. Both actions require interference from the government. You claiming one is a bailout and the other isn't is a load of crap.


    It's inefficient when we have to produce all of our own stuff.
    No its not.

    Again, you rely on division of labor.
    We have enough people in this country for that to not be an issue.



    You are the one talking about the importance of jobs being more important than efficiency
    It is efficient for a country to make its own goods. This ensures more Americans are employed at decent paying jobs.This ensures that we are not up **** creek for awhile if a country decided to completely stop trade with us.This also ensures that we are not propping up another country's economy or basically giving them cash to further strengthen their military.


    It doesn't work like that. You are showing ignorance of the most basic laws of economics, supply and demand. If other people wanted the goods going to America and there was not enough of the production to satisfy their demand, prices would go up. Producers would be attracted by these rising prices and the promise of profits, and they would step up production. The Chinese always have the option of making more money, but they don't make the same amount by wiping out one of their biggest customers.

    James, read a freaking textbook before you comment more.
    Again China is a country of over a billion people and the US is not the country that China can sell goods to.You seem to forget they are paying these people next to nothing to produce goods,so they can sell their goods at a much cheaper price as long as they sold to enough extra make up the difference .China can sell goods to its own citizens, to India which also has over a billion citizens and to multiple countries.
    "A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banner openly. But the traitor moves amongst those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the alleys, heard in the very halls of government itself. For the traitor appears not a traitor; he speaks in accents familiar to his victims, and he wears their face and their arguments, he appeals to the baseness that lies deep in the hearts of all men. He rots the soul of a nation, he works secretly and unknown in the night to undermine the pillars of the city, he infects the body politic so that it can no longer resist. A murder is less to fear"

    Cicero Marcus Tullius

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    Re: Seattle Reverses Ban on “Buy American”

    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
    But you were trying to imply that people would stop buying foreign goods.
    It all depends how high tariffs are. People will buy fewer foreign goods. Low tariffs create the same problems as high tariffs just to a lesser degree. Not as much capital and labor is used as efficiently, but a great deal of it still is.

    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
    What does this have to do with you trying to imply earlier that removing or reducing tariffs is not government intervention that puts money into the pockets of Chines companies therefor not a bailout, but increasing tariffs is somehow government intervention that puts money into the pockets of American businesses and therefor a bailout?
    The argument was over government propping up certain industries, and yes, a tax on a foreign good is a government intervention in the market. I don't see how the absence of a tax is government intervention. Yes, the government technically has to act in order to remove or lower the tariff. However, once it is gone, there is no more intervention. Tariffs will incentivize consumers to spend more money on certain domestic industries that they would not spend as they do if not for a government tax. Neither of us disputes that is the point of tariffs. Some Chinese businesses will be helped by America dropping trade restrictions. That does not mean that they will be propped up by the government, because market forces would be helping Chinese industry. The government is going against market forces to increase cash flow toward certain businesses. They are doing so indirectly, but that does not make it any different than any other bailout.

    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
    Production in China isn't going to give someone whose job was outsourced higher wages.
    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
    Maybe in the short-term, but increased production will give them more opportunities in the long run.
    If all the states did it would help their out of state markets.

    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
    How? Why would higher prices on PA's goods make more people want to buy them?

    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
    It means the Chinese will have jobs propped up by consumers.
    The consumers are choosing to respond to prices based on supply and demand. Governments are picking winners and losers with tariffs by distorting incentives


    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
    Government intervention is required either way.You remove or reduce tariffs then companies in Foreign countries benefit due o the government interference. If you increase the tariffs enough then the companies in the US benefit due to government interference. Both actions require interference from the government. You claiming one is a bailout and the other isn't is a load of crap.
    So getting rid of a government distortion of market incentives is an interference? You are getting rid of government distortions of the market.

    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
    No its not.

    We have enough people in this country for that to not be an issue.
    Ever heard of a production possibilities frontier? It's how much a person, firm, region, or country can produce. We have to face trade-offs when we make things. That's literally the main premise of economics. There are limits to what the Americans or any other group of people can do. There are only so many hours of labor, capital available, and minds to think. Otherwise the discussion about tariffs would be moot. This is the entire point of free trade. Say country A can produce 50 million lbs of rice or 60 million lbs of beef. Country B can produce 80 million lbs of rice or 70 million lbs of beef. If both countries had tariffs they would each be limited to a greater extent. However, without tariffs country A could produce beef and country B could produce rice. Since each can specialize they have more overall production. Think about it, you probably aren't as good at doing a particular thing when you are multitasking, but when you can focus, you are probably a lot better at it.

    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
    It is efficient for a country to make its own goods. This ensures more Americans are employed at decent paying jobs.This ensures that we are not up **** creek for awhile if a country decided to completely stop trade with us.This also ensures that we are not propping up another country's economy or basically giving them cash to further strengthen their military.
    Employment is not the same as efficiency! If it was, the USSR would have succeeded.

    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
    Again China is a country of over a billion people and the US is not the country that China can sell goods to.You seem to forget they are paying these people next to nothing to produce goods,so they can sell their goods at a much cheaper price as long as they sold to enough extra make up the difference .China can sell goods to its own citizens, to India which also has over a billion citizens and to multiple countries.
    Or they can sell to both and make even more money! Honestly, James you're comments are flying in the face of over 200 years of almost universally accepted economic data. A few economists support small amounts of protectionism, but none of them have eviscerated the laws of economics quite like you have.
    "Doubleplusungood"

    George Orwell

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