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Thread: Seattle Reverses Ban on “Buy American”

  1. #41
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    Re: Seattle Reverses Ban on “Buy American”

    Quote Originally Posted by DrunkenAsparagus View Post
    For the reasons that I brought up, we should only make what our own goods to the extent that it is efficient to do so.
    You did not list any real reason why making our own goods is a bad thing.


    If unemployment or low wages is the problem, why don't we just pay people to dig up holes and fill them back up again?
    Digging holes and filling them back up is a waste.
    They are essentially the same thing.
    No they are not.

    Both you and the country would be forced to do everything by yourselves. America's production possibilities have a limit.
    Again there is nothing wrong with making out own goods.We should make our own goods.
    Free trade helps us expand this limit and produce more things.
    The only thing free trade does is take jobs away from Americans and give them to people in other countries for significantly lesser pay.
    In attacking free trade, you attack some of the most basic capitalist principles that you claim to support.
    I do not support unrestricted capitalism.Unrestricted capitalism is how we have slavery, companies dumping waste into rivers and all sorts of other immoral ****.

    Statistics about income inequality and the "destruction of the middle class" are often very misleading and don't give us the full picture. Even if we do ignore this argument, the increasing gulf between rich and poor has very little to do with outsourcing. Outsourcing has not really affected wages or unemployment that much in the past 30 years.
    It doesn't take a genius to figure out that someone will get poorer if you take the job they were making decent amount of money at and ship it to another country and as a result that person has to take a lower paying job.


    It isn't at our expense. It's to our mutual benefit
    The US being at the mercy of other countries for goods and services is not to our benefit.Americans having to work at Wal-mart or some other low paying job because their decent paying factory job out sourced is not to our benefit of Americans.Increasing the amount of money that China has so it can build up its military even more at the expense of American jobs is not to our benifit.
    "A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banner openly. But the traitor moves amongst those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the alleys, heard in the very halls of government itself. For the traitor appears not a traitor; he speaks in accents familiar to his victims, and he wears their face and their arguments, he appeals to the baseness that lies deep in the hearts of all men. He rots the soul of a nation, he works secretly and unknown in the night to undermine the pillars of the city, he infects the body politic so that it can no longer resist. A murder is less to fear"

    Cicero Marcus Tullius

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    Re: Seattle Reverses Ban on “Buy American”

    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
    How can American companies compete against those in China that pay their workers 33 and half cents an hour for 80 hours a week? You seem to ignore this fact. All the education in the world will not prevent a company from outsourcing.
    Cheapness is not the only factor when considering the purchase of labor. The main desire is for return on investment. Would I rather put in $5 and get $10 back or put in $15 and get $50 back? America's workers are some of the most productive in the world, giving our country a distinct advantage in China in most areas.
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    Re: Seattle Reverses Ban on “Buy American”

    Quote Originally Posted by DrunkenAsparagus View Post
    What do you think tariffs do?
    Tariffs are a tax.Taxes go towards paying for roads,schools, military,and other tax payer funded services.
    Tariffs also ensure that American companies can fairly compete.

    They direct money toward businesses that wouldn't have it without state intervention.
    Removing a tariff requires state intervention just as much as imposing tariffs do. Instead of directing money towards American businesses you basically support directing that money towards China,India and any country that American jobs are outsourced to.

    If that's not a bailout, what is?
    It is not a bailout.
    "A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banner openly. But the traitor moves amongst those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the alleys, heard in the very halls of government itself. For the traitor appears not a traitor; he speaks in accents familiar to his victims, and he wears their face and their arguments, he appeals to the baseness that lies deep in the hearts of all men. He rots the soul of a nation, he works secretly and unknown in the night to undermine the pillars of the city, he infects the body politic so that it can no longer resist. A murder is less to fear"

    Cicero Marcus Tullius

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    Re: Seattle Reverses Ban on “Buy American”

    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
    You did not list any real reason why making our own goods is a bad thing.
    I spelled it out pretty quickly. It is inefficient to do everything instead of focusing on what we are best at.


    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
    Digging holes and filling them back up is a waste.
    So is propping up industries that can't compete on their own.

    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
    No they are not.
    Yes they are. Instead of utilizing the division of labor to its fullest potential, you are drawing an arbitrary line at the border. Would Pennsylvania setting up a tariffs help the Pennsylvanian economy?

    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
    Again there is nothing wrong with making out own goods.We should make our own goods.
    Why? It's no more efficient or conducive to job growth.

    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
    The only thing free trade does is take jobs away from Americans and give them to people in other countries for significantly lesser pay.
    Creative destruction. Just because something goes away does not mean that there is nothing to take its place. As more and more Americans are not tied up in manufacturing there is more human capital freed up to do things in other sectors.

    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
    I do not support unrestricted capitalism.Unrestricted capitalism is how we have slavery, companies dumping waste into rivers and all sorts of other immoral ****.
    Of course government has some place, but you are attacking the very foundations of capitalism when you make these arguments.

    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
    It doesn't take a genius to figure out that someone will get poorer if you take the job they were making decent amount of money at and ship it to another country and as a result that person has to take a lower paying job.
    It might look like that, but people here get new jobs. The transition isn't often easy, but it will still benefit the country as a whole and probably that person in the long run as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
    The US being at the mercy of other countries for goods and services is not to our benefit.Americans having to work at Wal-mart or some other low paying job because their decent paying factory job out sourced is not to our benefit of Americans.Increasing the amount of money that China has so it can build up its military even more at the expense of American jobs is not to our benifit.
    This is one of the silliest arguments against free trade. International trade has done more to prevent international conflict than all of the nuclear weapons, treaties, US hegemonic power combined. Why would two economies attack each other if they were economically dependent on each other?
    "Doubleplusungood"

    George Orwell

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    Re: Seattle Reverses Ban on “Buy American”

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    Yep, no one on mainstreet has ever reaped any benefit what so ever due to the various trade agreements that have been in place which have lead to an influx of extremely cheap items for sale....

    ...also, I have apparently imagined the legions of people entering into Walmarts on a daily basis scooping up clothes, house hold items, toys, food, and other things for low prices which allows them to buy more of what they need. Either that or they're all actually CEO's, just proving that even CEO's can have really, really bad butt cracks.
    The reason you see them so much is they're buying ANOTHER cheap piece of crap to replace the one they bought just recently.

    If it was cheap QUALITY goods you might have a point. But most aren't worth the bargain basement price that is all Americans can AFFORD to pay.
    Anyone wondering what I'm talking about start here:
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    Re: Seattle Reverses Ban on “Buy American”

    Quote Originally Posted by DrunkenAsparagus View Post
    Cheapness is not the only factor when considering the purchase of labor. The main desire is for return on investment. Would I rather put in $5 and get $10 back or put in $15 and get $50 back?
    I am sure that if some of these companies had it their way they would outsource to countries that permitted slavery instead of just paying workers next to nothing.


    America's workers are some of the most productive in the world, giving our country a distinct advantage in China in most areas.
    Productivity doesn't mean squat if it can be easily outsourced to another country.
    "A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banner openly. But the traitor moves amongst those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the alleys, heard in the very halls of government itself. For the traitor appears not a traitor; he speaks in accents familiar to his victims, and he wears their face and their arguments, he appeals to the baseness that lies deep in the hearts of all men. He rots the soul of a nation, he works secretly and unknown in the night to undermine the pillars of the city, he infects the body politic so that it can no longer resist. A murder is less to fear"

    Cicero Marcus Tullius

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    Re: Seattle Reverses Ban on “Buy American”

    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
    Tariffs are a tax.Taxes go towards paying for roads,schools, military,and other tax payer funded services.
    They also ensure that a greater amount of money will go toward certain, favored industries.

    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
    Tariffs also ensure that American companies can fairly compete.
    What do you consider fair?

    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
    Removing a tariff requires state intervention just as much as imposing tariffs do.

    Are you serious? So by this logic any removal of stat intervention is state intervention. Well I guess we shouldn't lower income tax rates. Those are also taxes.

    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
    Instead of directing money towards American businesses you basically support directing that money towards China,India and any country that American jobs are outsourced to.
    Removal of the tariff does not direct money anywhere. Consumers get to decide where to spend their money

    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
    It is not a bailout.
    Using government force to direct money toward certain industries that otherwise would not be able to compete is by definition a bailout. You can say that it is justified, but all you are doing now is playing a semantics game.
    "Doubleplusungood"

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    Re: Seattle Reverses Ban on “Buy American”

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    If China can make steel more cost efficiently than we could, but we restrict or artificially raise the cost of their steel, then domestic firms would have to spend more for the same product or have to buy steel from a more expensive domestic firm.
    Thus rolling the unnecessary increased cost into the item, requiring consumers to pay more for the same product, all the satisfy the whims of some economic illiterates.



    Incorrect.
    Artificially raising prices and bailing out domestic businesses is still wrong.
    Pretty sure steel isn't a good example. Chinese steel made from in-country ores is physically inferior to that made from north american ores.

    There used to be laws preventing export of ore and scrap to China for this reason.

    As someone who has worked as a mechanic, you don't want Chinese made tools. Busted knuckles galore.
    Anyone wondering what I'm talking about start here:
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    Re: Seattle Reverses Ban on “Buy American”

    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
    I am sure that if some of these companies had it their way they would outsource to countries that permitted slavery instead of just paying workers next to nothing.
    If a person decides to take a job at their own free will that is not slavery. Furthermore, these people are generally making more than what they did before. Calling this slavery is nothing but asinine

    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
    Productivity doesn't mean squat if it can be easily outsourced to another country.
    By this logic, any product or service that doesn't have a tariff on it would mean that every American job used for producing it would be exported to some other low wage country. The historical unemployment data simply does not bare this out.
    Last edited by DrunkenAsparagus; 12-06-11 at 10:22 PM.
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    Re: Seattle Reverses Ban on “Buy American”

    Quote Originally Posted by DrunkenAsparagus View Post
    I spelled it out pretty quickly. It is inefficient to do everything instead of focusing on what we are best at.
    Goods being made in America would not be us doing everything.

    So is propping up industries that can't compete on their own.
    It is not propping up industries.

    Yes they are. Instead of utilizing the division of labor to its fullest potential, you are drawing an arbitrary line at the border.
    You can't have everyone doing the same labor.You can't have everyone be doctors or everyone be policemen.Getting American businesses to stay in America and make goods in American is not having everyone in the country make goods.

    Would Pennsylvania setting up a tariffs help the Pennsylvanian economy?
    Pennsylvania is a individual state.The whole country would have to set up tariffs in order to help out the economy.

    Why? It's no more efficient or conducive to job growth.
    Companies require employes to fuction,so yes companies making goods in America does help with job growth and the economy.

    Creative destruction. Just because something goes away does not mean that there is nothing to take its place. As more and more Americans are not tied up in manufacturing there is more human capital freed up to do things in other sectors
    We have high unemployment.All Americans would not be tied up in Manufacturing as you keep falsely claiming.

    Of course government has some place, but you are attacking the very foundations of capitalism when you make these arguments.
    Again I am not for unrestricted capitalism.

    It might look like that, but people here get new jobs. The transition isn't often easy, but it will still benefit the country as a whole and probably that person in the long run as well.
    Americans taking a pay cut is not a benefit.


    Why would two economies attack each other if they were economically dependent on each other?
    Letting companies outsource to countries so they can pay workers next to nothing does not make us economically dependent on China. If China did something to piss the US off enough for us to cut ties or we pissed China off enough for China to cut ties with us then all those jobs would end up going to a country that is not one of China's allies or back to the US.
    "A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banner openly. But the traitor moves amongst those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the alleys, heard in the very halls of government itself. For the traitor appears not a traitor; he speaks in accents familiar to his victims, and he wears their face and their arguments, he appeals to the baseness that lies deep in the hearts of all men. He rots the soul of a nation, he works secretly and unknown in the night to undermine the pillars of the city, he infects the body politic so that it can no longer resist. A murder is less to fear"

    Cicero Marcus Tullius

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