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Obama: Solving Euro Crisis of ‘Huge Importance’

oh sorry so America GDP isn't dropping like a rock and America isn't billions in foregin debt, please enlighten me because you obviously have information that the rest of the world doesn't.

We can simply turn on the printing presses.
 
If you have any idea how things work you would know that we were nowhere near default. It was just the wailing of crybaby politicians.

Tell that to your grandchildren when they are stuck with the debt from our recklessness, irresponsibility and stupidity
 
Tell that to your grandchildren when they are stuck with the debt from our recklessness, irresponsibility and stupidity

Yep, I guess that's what they said after WWII.
 
Yep, I guess that's what they said after WWII.

America was in a economic and industrial boom before the end of ww2 so not sure what your getting at here.
 
Tell that to your grandchildren when they are stuck with the debt from our recklessness, irresponsibility and stupidity

I have no idea how this relates to the fact that the claims were hyperbole.
 
America was in a economic and industrial boom before the end of ww2 so not sure what your getting at here.

I'm going with, our grandfathers and great granfathers ran up a far greater debt than we're running up now -- the last time we saw an economy this bad. And you know what? We dealt with it just fine. Until around 1982....
 
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I'm going with, our grandfathers and great granfathers ran up a far greater debt than we're running up now -- the last time we saw an economy this bad. And you know what? We dealt with it just fine. Until around 1982....

Do you believe we have the potential for the same technological evolution and economic growth? We are getting very close to the same Debt/GDP ratios of the 1940s and frankly, our internals still suck. Traditionally I am an optimist, but I'm having to dig deep to find the light at the end of this tunnel.

EDIT: Didn't mean to derail this thread to America. I'm still hoping PeteEU or drz-400 returns to further discuss Europe and what our role should be in bailing them out. AdamT, if you want we can take our projections about the US economy to a different thread.
 
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Do you believe we have the potential for the same technological evolution and economic growth? We are getting very close to the same Debt/GDP ratios of the 1940s and frankly, our internals still suck. Traditionally I am an optimist, but I'm having to dig deep to find the light at the end of this tunnel.

EDIT: Didn't mean to derail this thread to America. I'm still hoping PeteEU or drz-400 returns to further discuss Europe and what our role should be in bailing them out. AdamT, if you want we can take our projections about the US economy to a different thread.

I don't think we have the opportunities now that we had in the 40's, but we absolutely have the ability to dig out of this debt problem, and it wouldn't even be that difficult if the two sides would just f*cking come together and meet each other half way.
 
Thanks I didn't realize my numbers were out of date. Hopefully there was no major discrepancies.

Morning and no major discrepancies but a few changes (France deficit went from 7.1 to 7.0.. always better to get from the source :)

I know you are making the Greek debt go poof but the issue we are discussing is printing by the ECB. The ECB buying bonds is different than wiping them out. The inflation comes as a result of pumping newly printed money into the system to buy toxic debt. This worked in our country by preventing the banking system from collapsing, but the subsequent recovery has been dismal despite additional stimulus to the tune of $1 trillion.

Printing money to save the banks has zero to do with your bad growth. There are many factors that influence your lack of growth. First off the average American is far more indebted than the average European, which means the wiggle room is much smaller. And when you hear daily that the world is coming to an end because the Federal government and European governments are in too much debt, then people and companies automatically shut down and baton down the hatches so to say. As your economy is 70% consumer driven then these two factors will mean less growth. Add to that, the political mess you have over there and it creates serious uncertainty for companies and people, only making the problem even worse. The printing of money did one thing.. saved your banking sector so that you would have one in the future when the doom and gloom crap is over and removed a large amount of toxic assets from the market when at the same time pushing more money and liquidity into the market. It is actually done all the time, but not in that scale of course.

The Germans' fear is that if you start printing now to monetize the debt you set a precedent for future action by the ECB. That is why it was so important to prevent it when it was first formed.

And I agree with them. There is a moral hazard and other issues including inflation, but we have reached a situation where it is simply needed. It can be done as long as the ECB keeps control over its printing and focuses on getting the debt burdens down and economies working again. It has always been the role of the central bank to pump liquidity into the system when needed and that includes printing money, but because of the German stance then the ECB is handicapped on this point.

Reference my earlier post on necessary size of a EU bailout (of the banking system) to understand the massive size the bailout would need to be in order to be effective (2.1tn).

2.1 trillion is nothing compared to the cost of not doing anything. And we have to go away from this "bailout" terminology.. it is not a bail-out but a back stop, a guarantee of bank debt, something that all other national banks do, except the ECB. In the US you went and bought massive amount of assets from the banks and "washed them". In the UK they did the same and nationalised the banks.

I think you are deluding yourself about Italy. Economists forecast a recession in 2012 and the markets definitely disagree with you about Italian debt being a problem.

Markets are not rational, as I have stated over and over again. Something or one is pushing markets in the direction they are going because certain countries are being overlooked and have the same economic outlook as Italy and Spain. And I am not deluding myself about Italy, it is most people that dont understand how big an economy Italy and the composition of Italy's debt. Italians have a huge saving rate (15ish%) and 60+% of the national debt is owned by Italians themselves. Also Northern Italy is as wealthy if not wealthier than Germany and depending on how you measure it, Italy has a higher productivity than Germany. Now that is not saying they dont have problems, but it is fixable problems and pushing them over the brink does not help the issue. Italy has a primary surplus.. and next year will most likely have a real surplus.. and yet Italy is being pressured by the markets? makes zero sense when the UK has rising unemployment, rising debt and deficit and zero growth. Why should Italy who has its economy in some what check pay 7.4% in yield, where as the Uk who zero control over its finances pay 2.3%?

I think we should let the German people decide whether they want a devalued Euro or not. I'm no expert on European economics but aren't a majority of their exports to other EU countries? Wouldn't this negate the positive effect of a weakened Euro?

First of all, like it or not, "letting the people decide" complex economic issues is idiotic... yes it sounds undemocratic, but I am not willing to "let the people decide" when I fully know that they are so easily persuaded by idiots like Farage and other anti-Euros... the stakes are too high and 99% of the people have very little understanding about the situation or process so they will clammer to those who they understand and that is people like the Farage idiot.

Secondly, yes something like 60% of their exports are to other EU countries, but of those EU countries 10 are not in the Eurozone, including the UK. But that is some what irrelevant, because the consequences of not having the Euro would mean 100% of exports would be outside the new German Mark, which would be insanely highly priced which would choke all exports.

It sounds like the only way to have a sound monetary union between countries with such of a diverse range of problems would be to bring them under one European government. You can't leave the system unchanged and just expect the weaker countries to fix their issues at the expense of the stronger countries.

Not really. It all depends on how you set things up. But that is another discussion. The idea now is to make sure that the European governments dont go nutso on spending during good times, which has been a problem before.

So you would be in favor of expelling countries that run a deficit above a certain level? I can support that.

Depends on the time and amount. Greece yes, Spain, Italy, Portugal no. You always have to take into consideration the economic times. A country that has 6% deficit during times with 3% growth needs to get its priorities fixed. A country that has 6% deficit during a recession is normal.

But wait, you later say that the targets have to move depending on economic conditions. Do you realize the difficulty in regulating this and enforcing it? I absolutely agree that economies should work by having deficits in a recession and surpluses in a boom. The problem is that rarely happens once the presses start running. Just look at my country to see an example of this.

No offence, but your country is a joke when it comes to budgets and politics. The US has not had many surpluses in the last 50 years...

And it does work and has worked for most countries. During boom years there was surpluses or minor (less than inflation) deficits. The problem comes with countries like Greece lie and what to do about that. First off you need a system that makes it impossible to lie, which means checks and balances from a central European place. That means meddling in budgets up to a point. Secondly you have the recession aspect of the situation where deficits naturally climb because of less tax income. The deeper the recession the larger the deficit. This must be allowed up to a point, especially when it is the job of the government to try to kick start the economy.. but that of course requires that debt levels and spending fall during the good times.

I don't understand your position. On one hand you say austerity is idiotic and you can't cut spending in a recession, on the other you claim Europe is in a recession and the solution is to cut spending. You seem to put waaay too much faith in the promises of surpluses. All predictions point to a recession in Italy in 2012. Are they still going to run a surplus with record bond yields and falling tax revenues? I won't even touch the idea of a Greece surplus. They already got a 50% bond haircut which will probably be revised higher.

No no.. I dont think the solution is to cut spending.. the markets think it is.. I think it is idiotic during a recession... it will do nothing but prolong the recession. We saw it in the early 1930s when the US and European countries cut deep because of the crash and it caused nothing but even more recession.

And I dont put too much faith in surpluses. You have to remember many countries have been cutting hard and brought down their deficits during times of recession.. which I dont like, but is a fact. Any small amount of growth and growth in tax revenue would push these deficits over into surpluses.

Greece has not gotten a 50% haircut .. yet. The political bullcrap and voting has not been done yet to make it official. Plus the Greeks themselves are dragging their feet. Greece frankly is somewhat irrelevant since they will go belly up in one way or another..and it is small change frankly.

Also if you dispute the Irish numbers there is no way you can accept the Greek numbers with a straight face. Read this article if you want to understand the rampant fraud in Greece's financial accounting.

I dispute the Irish numbers because they dont seem to include the bank guarantee that the previous Irish government made. I also some what dispute the UK debt numbers.. since they do not include the debt held by the nationalised banks.. The Greek numbers are under a freaking loop now, so they are unable to hide and cheat any more. Yes it was in the past a huge problem, but now.. not nearly.

I know that the European crisis didn't pop up this year. However, the Greek haircut did, the European bond yields skyrocketed, renewed fears of recession in Italy did, and new political failures in Greece did. I agree that it has been bleeding for 2 years due to incompetent politicians but your fantasy that the crisis is "mostly made up" is absurd. I could post a full page of just links to articles about the severity of the crisis in Europe. I'm sure that wouldn't matter though.

I know you can post pages and pages of links about the so called crisis. And if you read those pages, then the "problem" changes almost monthly.. Take Spain, first the media said it was a sovereign debt problem..PIGS. But then suddenly the media found out hey wait a minute, Spain has less debt than all the other major countries. So then the media with help from the financial industry, turned their attention to Spanish banks! That lasted a few months when the media found out that Spain had been in consolidation mode in its Cajas for years and the marketshare of the Cajas was 3% of the over all banking sector in Spain, and that the main big Spanish banks were healthier than most other European banks. Then the media briefly turned towards the regional debt problem in Spain.. only to find out that it was included in the over all Spanish sovereign debt and deficit, and was a small part. Now days they are focusing finally on the unemployment problem, which was always the real issue in Spain..

My point is, much of the doom and gloom is not based on facts and figures but on rumours and hearsay and that is what has been pushing Europe around for the last 2 years. And the more doom and gloom the more people baton down the hatches and the longer the crisis goes on.

In my world 15% inflation would be considered a problem. I'm not one of those conservatives who believe all printing is evil and that inflation is the devil rearing it's head but it's a tricky beast. I think the German people have every right to vote against it if they want. It's time for the unelected thugs in the EU to cede some of their power back to the people who pay their salaries.

The Germans go to the polls every 4 years or so.. they have their say. The "unelected" thugs in the EU are exactly who? The Commission? must be since they are the only unelected people in the EU system, and they have zero power to force anything down on the people, since all laws and so on need to be approved by elected peoples both in the EU parliament (where Farage the idiot is talking from in the video btw) and national parliaments and governments.

But yes 15% is high, but it is not catastrophic in a short period. But 15% is also unrealistic. The UK has been printing money like no tomorrow as has the US, and inflation is 5%ish.
 
EDIT: Didn't mean to derail this thread to America. I'm still hoping PeteEU or drz-400 returns to further discuss Europe and what our role should be in bailing them out. AdamT, if you want we can take our projections about the US economy to a different thread.

I need my sleep!!!!

As for the US helping out Europe.. it is in their own interest.. like it or not. Plus who would buy your crap if it was not for Europe and Asia? :)
 
I haven't had a chance to read your response yet but major news just came across the wire. Looks like the Fed just lowered the pricing on existing temporary US dollar liquidity swap arrangements by 50 basis points along with major central banks across the world. This is exactly what I said earlier about the Fed assisting the Eurozone without involving the US budgetary process.

The Federal Open Market Committee has authorized an extension of the existing temporary U.S. dollar liquidity swap arrangements with the Bank of Canada, the Bank of England, the Bank of Japan, the European Central Bank, and the Swiss National Bank through February 1, 2013. The rate on these swap arrangements has been reduced from the U.S. dollar OIS rate plus 100 basis points to the OIS rate plus 50 basis points. In addition, as a contingency measure, the Federal Open Market Committee has agreed to establish similar temporary swap arrangements with these five central banks to provide liquidity in any of their currencies if necessary. Further details on the revised arrangements will be available shortly.

Fed, Five Central Banks Cut Rate on Dollar Swaps - Bloomberg

Stock futures in the US are up 2% and almost all the European indices are up 3%.
 
I don't think we have the opportunities now that we had in the 40's, but we absolutely have the ability to dig out of this debt problem, and it wouldn't even be that difficult if the two sides would just f*cking come together and meet each other half way.

That would require some big time losses. That's what those in power are trying everything imaginable to avoid. It can't happen. The two sides are those who can provide some financial stability and those who are going to take a loss.
 
I haven't had a chance to read your response yet but major news just came across the wire. Looks like the Fed just lowered the pricing on existing temporary US dollar liquidity swap arrangements by 50 basis points along with major central banks across the world. This is exactly what I said earlier about the Fed assisting the Eurozone without involving the US budgetary process.

IMO, that's a welcome step that will reduce the risk of a liquidity crunch and ensuing breakdown of market function. This development does not spare EU countries facing debt-related pressures from the need to pursue credible fiscal consolidation.
 
IMO, that's a welcome step that will reduce the risk of a liquidity crunch and ensuing breakdown of market function. This development does not spare EU countries facing debt-related pressures from the need to pursue credible fiscal consolidation.

There is no arguing that it was a welcome step. Critics argue that despite solving the current liquidity problem it doesn't do anything to address underlying solvency issues. In the short term it definitely helped cash-strapped institutions but the longer term consequences could be troublesome. While I agree some liquidity measures needed to be taken (Fed has already been providing swaps at a record rates, today was just a coordinated move to increase the volume and make them cheaper), the question is how well that extra liquidity will convert to consumer credit and aggregate demand.

In conclusion, I have said I support Fed assistance to the EU, I just strongly oppose involving the budgetary process.
 
There is no arguing that it was a welcome step. Critics argue that despite solving the current liquidity problem it doesn't do anything to address underlying solvency issues. In the short term it definitely helped cash-strapped institutions but the longer term consequences could be troublesome. While I agree some liquidity measures needed to be taken (Fed has already been providing swaps at a record rates, today was just a coordinated move to increase the volume and make them cheaper), the question is how well that extra liquidity will convert to consumer credit and aggregate demand.

In conclusion, I have said I support Fed assistance to the EU, I just strongly oppose involving the budgetary process.

Well the critics are morons on so many levels and their views are most likely based on partisan political ideology than reality.. wonder if it is the same morons.. err critics that claimed that the EU had to be bailed out with 6 trillion Euros... any ways... Banks and the financial industry run on liquidity, and when liquidity is drained from the market then yes banks get into solvency problems because they can not meet their day to day liquidity needs. So what the fed and the rest of the industrialised worlds banks did today might be a temporary solution some what, but it had the desired effect and hopefully the market will start to question validity of the "critics" who are ruling the world markets now.

The only downside might be that the need for the ECB to actually print money will be dampened a tad, which will play into the hands of the Germans who dont want the ECB to print money.... but then again it might give the Eurozone the time politically to get their ducks in place so to say.
 
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The Fed's latest actions in cooperating with foreign central banks to undertake liquidity swaps of dollars for foreign currencies is another reason why Congress needs enhanced power to oversee and audit the Fed. Under current law Congress cannot examine these types of agreements. Those who would argue that auditing the Fed or these agreements with central banks harms the Fed's independence should reevaluate the Fed's supposed independence when the Fed bails out Europe so soon after President Obama promised US assistance in resolving the Euro crisis.

Rather than calming markets, these arrangements should indicate just how frightened governments around the world are about the European financial crisis. Central banks are grasping at straws, hoping that flooding the world with money created out of thin air will somehow resolve a crisis caused by uncontrolled government spending and irresponsible debt issuance. Congress should not permit this type of open-ended commitment on the part of the Fed, a commitment which could easily run into the trillions of dollars. These dollar swaps are purely inflationary and will harm American consumers as much as any form of quantitative easing.

The Fed is behaving much as it did during the 2008 financial crisis, only this time instead of bailing out politically well-connected too-big-to-fail firms it is bailing out profligate government spending. Citizens the world over deserve better than this. They deserve sound money that cannot be manipulated and created out of thin air by central planners who promise printed prosperity. Fiat money caused this European crisis and the financial crisis before it. More fiat money is not the cure. The global fiat currency system has proven itself a failure, we need real monetary reform. We need sound money.

Ron Paul's thought on the Fed action today. He makes a great point about Obama promising assistance and then a few days later the Fed acts. There is no doubt that was a coordinated effort.
 
These dollar swaps are purely inflationary and will harm American consumers as much as any form of quantitative easing.

But for some, it's all the fault of the "corporations".
 
Well the critics are morons on so many levels and their views are most likely based on partisan political ideology than reality.. wonder if it is the same morons.. err critics that claimed that the EU had to be bailed out with 6 trillion Euros... any ways... Banks and the financial industry run on liquidity, and when liquidity is drained from the market then yes banks get into solvency problems because they can not meet their day to day liquidity needs. So what the fed and the rest of the industrialised worlds banks did today might be a temporary solution some what, but it had the desired effect and hopefully the market will start to question validity of the "critics" who are ruling the world markets now.

The only downside might be that the need for the ECB to actually print money will be dampened a tad, which will play into the hands of the Germans who dont want the ECB to print money.... but then again it might give the Eurozone the time politically to get their ducks in place so to say.

All they did was put a bandaid on a sucking chest wound.

Until the Liberal polices of spending more than they take in, comes to an end, the problem will never go away.

There are only two options: 1) Let those countries go belly up and be forced to change their life styles, or 2) We keep bailing them out, until we run out of money and everybody goes belly up and have to change their life styles.

Face it, Liberalism is a complete failure. Probably a bigger failure than communism, since communism didn't call for a worldwide multi-trillion dollar bailout to keep it alive.
 
All they did was put a bandaid on a sucking chest wound.

Until the Liberal polices of spending more than they take in, comes to an end, the problem will never go away.

There are only two options: 1) Let those countries go belly up and be forced to change their life styles, or 2) We keep bailing them out, until we run out of money and everybody goes belly up and have to change their life styles.

Face it, Liberalism is a complete failure. Probably a bigger failure than communism, since communism didn't call for a worldwide multi-trillion dollar bailout to keep it alive.

If liberalism now includes saving the ass of those who made poor investments I agree.

Sarcasm aside, your point is correct but not complete.
 
We're not alking about a society of people. We're talking single government entities, that have a spending problem and are living like kings on borrowed money. They're going to have cut spending and shrink their deficits, for anything to change; bailout, or not bailout.

The problem with that is we do live in a society of people.... and whether that society is 8 people or 8 billion the principles are the same, just more complex.

Whether austerity--or lack of--is half the problem, three-quarters of the problem, or all of the problem, the fact remains that none of these failing economie have passed any auterity measures to try and start curbing the overhead that is causing the problem.

Good... because the second they DO accept the type of proposed austerity, is like the second you hand over your wallet and your house keys to a person robbing you. We need to follow the example of Iceland, who told these bankers to go **** themselves, and they came back a few days later and said "oh, our bad you only owe a fraction of what we first claimed." At which point they should have gone one step further and thrown everyone involved behind bars for even ATTEMPTING that type of scam.


Despite what some folks think, a government has to be run just like a business and while a government doesn't have to turn a profit and can run with a certain amount of loss, that loss can't be equal to more than the revenue it generates, if it is, we have the senario we see happening in Europe.

And in the US. But it's not much different than an individual with a credit rating... no matter how GOOD YOUR CREDIT IS, there's NO REASON why they should be allowed to get into a situation where the INTEREST on the debt (not the principal) IS MORE THAN THE INCOME!!!

But, there's always a new contrived crisis, and now it's reaching a boiling point where every week or two the Euro is on the verge of collapse, and then when the Euro gets saved, then it's another region on the verge... and it's all to save those that are deemed "too big to fail", leaving the rest of us as "too small to save".

But seriously, the problem is not even so much one of excessive debts, the problem is excessive THEFTS!!!
 
The problem with that is we do live in a society of people.... and whether that society is 8 people or 8 billion the principles are the same, just more complex.

But, we still have a government entity that is screwing the pooch.



Good... because the second they DO accept the type of proposed austerity, is like the second you hand over your wallet and your house keys to a person robbing you.

How do you figger that? Do you even understand what austerity is?

We need to follow the example of Iceland, who told these bankers to go **** themselves, and they came back a few days later and said "oh, our bad you only owe a fraction of what we first claimed." At which point they should have gone one step further and thrown everyone involved behind bars for even ATTEMPTING that type of scam.

What we need to do, is stop believing in the fantasy that banks, or any other private industry caused all these problems.




And in the US. But it's not much different than an individual with a credit rating... no matter how GOOD YOUR CREDIT IS, there's NO REASON why they should be allowed to get into a situation where the INTEREST on the debt (not the principal) IS MORE THAN THE INCOME!!!

The principal is the debt. I'm starting to see why you don't understand what I'm telling you.

But, there's always a new contrived crisis, and now it's reaching a boiling point where every week or two the Euro is on the verge of collapse, and then when the Euro gets saved, then it's another region on the verge... and it's all to save those that are deemed "too big to fail", leaving the rest of us as "too small to save".

But seriously, the problem is not even so much one of excessive debts, the problem is excessive THEFTS!!!

All the more reason why we shouldn't give them a ****ing nickel.
 
But, we still have a government entity that is screwing the pooch.

No, the government is doing a VERY GOOD JOB at protecting those large-scale white collar criminals, and ensuring that the corporate interests remain protected.

How do you figger that? Do you even understand what austerity is?

There are two definitions of austerity... there's the actual definition as you presented and to an extent I agree with you. THEN there's the austerity as it's being proposed, which is much closer to robbing from the middle to spread amongst the poor. It's just being CALLED austerity.

What we need to do, is stop believing in the fantasy that banks, or any other private industry caused all these problems.

I'm sorry, but the REASON why we are in such a huge mess is BECAUSE of the central banks and because of "derivative" investments.

The world-wide debt load because of this is in the range of 1500+ TRILLION dollars (600+ trillion dollars to the US alone). So, really, the government debt problem is peanuts compared to the elephant in the room.

The principal is the debt. I'm starting to see why you don't understand what I'm telling you.

Yes, and we can no longer afford even THE INTEREST on that principal. Whatever you don't pay in interest gets added to the principal.

All the more reason why we shouldn't give them a ****ing nickel.

This goes contrary to your first point. Giving into austerity is necessary BECAUSE you are giving them, not just a nickel, but in the order of hundreds or thousands of BILLIONS of dollars worth of nickels.

The debt is mostly NOT LEGITIMATELY OWED by the people... it's private gambling debts that are in the process of being socialized.... and the more we accept the financial terrorism going on, the more we are taking on fraudulent debts that we SHOULD NOT OWE IN THE FIRST PLACE.

Do yourself a favor, read up on IMF policies... they have a process through which they financially take over nations. Like was done to Argentina some time ago. The final stage is to create a situation SO BAD that the people riot, thus lowering the confidence so everything can be purchased for pennies on the dollar... THEN after a few months they give back a FRACTION of what the people had before, the people are happy because they had their "victory" which was better than the catastrophe, but a fraction of what they had prior.
 
No, the government is doing a VERY GOOD JOB at protecting those large-scale white collar criminals, and ensuring that the corporate interests remain protected.

The only criminals--if you must call them that--are the ones in the government that created the mess.



There are two definitions of austerity... there's the actual definition as you presented and to an extent I agree with you. THEN there's the austerity as it's being proposed, which is much closer to robbing from the middle to spread amongst the poor. It's just being CALLED austerity.

If you agree with me, why do you keep saying thta austerity won't work?



I'm sorry, but the REASON why we are in such a huge mess is BECAUSE of the central banks and because of "derivative" investments.

You can't be serious! That housing bubble the government created doesn't have anything to do with it? What about the billions that the Eruos owe those fat cat pensions, that they can't afford, because there is more money going out and less money coming in, with the gap getting wider and wider every year? Ya think maybe a 30 hour work week might have been a bad idea??

The world-wide debt load because of this is in the range of 1500+ TRILLION dollars (600+ trillion dollars to the US alone). So, really, the government debt problem is peanuts compared to the elephant in the room.

All the more reason to spend less and run the household on what you've actaully have coming in, or--I know this is going to sound really freaky-deaky to some folks--figure out a way to make more money, without raising taxes.



Yes, and we can no longer afford even THE INTEREST on that principal. Whatever you don't pay in interest gets added to the principal.

Actaully, it doesn't, but whatever



This goes contrary to your first point. Giving into austerity is necessary BECAUSE you are giving them, not just a nickel, but in the order of hundreds or thousands of BILLIONS of dollars worth of nickels.

Uh, right, but I don't see how it's contrary to anything I've said.

The debt is mostly NOT LEGITIMATELY OWED by the people... it's private gambling debts that are in the process of being socialized.... and the more we accept the financial terrorism going on, the more we are taking on fraudulent debts that we SHOULD NOT OWE IN THE FIRST PLACE.

Another great case for drastic austerity measures.

Do yourself a favor, read up on IMF policies... they have a process through which they financially take over nations. Like was done to Argentina some time ago. The final stage is to create a situation SO BAD that the people riot, thus lowering the confidence so everything can be purchased for pennies on the dollar... THEN after a few months they give back a FRACTION of what the people had before, the people are happy because they had their "victory" which was better than the catastrophe, but a fraction of what they had prior.

The IMF doesn't create the situation; politicians with all kinds of government handouts create the situation.
 
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