Page 5 of 8 FirstFirst ... 34567 ... LastLast
Results 41 to 50 of 75

Thread: Second experiment confirms neutrinos travel faster than light

  1. #41
    Sage
    Ikari's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Colorado
    Last Seen
    12-08-17 @ 01:05 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian - Left
    Posts
    54,124

    Re: Second experiment confirms neutrinos travel faster than light

    Quote Originally Posted by solletica View Post
    Causality is not necessarily violated w/reverse time travel. You can add parallel (i. e. forked) universes to hold alternate realities or have a single universe that instantly changes to account for actions to make itself causality-consistent.
    You'd have to add something if you want to keep Causality alive. So far whenever science is forced with a choice on how something can be interpreted, we have always chosen to maintain causality at the cost of everything else. Because once that becomes not true...how the hell are you supposed to understand anything? Regardless, we know that Relativity works and thus IF we measured FTL particles, we would have to find a construct underwhich they do not break causality. Maybe the speed of light needs to be raised. Hehehe. But for sure, there is a lot that could be "wrong" with the measurements, there's a lot that has to be discovered. I remember superluminous wave packets and how people went crazy about that at first too; and then we learned the real physics behind it and it all fell in place. I think that's what we're going to see here too...there will be some material property that we find.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

  2. #42
    Educator
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Last Seen
    11-28-15 @ 07:12 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    798

    Re: Second experiment confirms neutrinos travel faster than light

    Faster than light neutrinos? Not so fast, say new findings.


    Scientists at Switzerland's CERN research center threatened to turn physics upside down in September, when they measured a neutrino traveling at faster-than-light speeds. But now a new experiment by researchers in Italy suggests that the particles are actually obeying the cosmic speed limit.

    An international team of scientists in Italy studying the same neutrino particles colleagues say appear to have travelled faster than light rejected the startling finding this weekend, saying their tests had shown it must be wrong.

    The September announcement of the finding, backed up last week after new studies, caused a furor in the scientific world as it seemed to suggest Albert Einstein's ideas on relativity, and much of modern physics, were based on a mistaken premise.

    The first team, members of the OPERA experiment at the Gran Sasso laboratory south of Rome, said they recorded neutrinos beamed to them from the CERN research center in Switzerland as arriving 60 nanoseconds before light would have done.

    But ICARUS, another experiment at Gran Sasso – which is deep under mountains and run by Italy's National Institute of National Physics – now argues that their measurements of the neutrinos energy on arrival contradict that reading.

    In a paper posted Saturday on the same website as the OPERA results, the ICARUS team says their findings "refute a superluminal (faster than light) interpretation of the OPERA result."

    They argue, on the basis of recently published studies by two top U.S. physicists, that the neutrinos pumped down from CERN, near Geneva, should have lost most of their energy if they had travelled at even a tiny fraction faster than light.

    But in fact, the ICARUS scientists say, the neutrino beam as tested in their equipment registered an energy spectrum fully corresponding with what it should be for particles traveling at the speed of light and no more.

    Physicist Tomasso Dorigo, who works at CERN, the European Organization for Nuclear Research, and the U.S. Fermilab near Chicago, said in a post on the website Scientific Blogging that the ICARUS paper was "very simple and definitive."

    It says, he wrote, "that the difference between the speed of neutrinos and the speed of light cannot be as large as that seen by OPERA, and is certainly smaller than that by three orders of magnitude, and compatible with zero."
    Faster than light neutrinos? Not so fast, say new findings. - CSMonitor.com

  3. #43
    Sage

    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Last Seen
    10-10-16 @ 10:59 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian
    Posts
    6,073

    Re: Second experiment confirms neutrinos travel faster than light

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    You'd have to add something if you want to keep Causality alive. So far whenever science is forced with a choice on how something can be interpreted, we have always chosen to maintain causality at the cost of everything else. Because once that becomes not true...how the hell are you supposed to understand anything? Regardless, we know that Relativity works and thus IF we measured FTL particles, we would have to find a construct underwhich they do not break causality. Maybe the speed of light needs to be raised. Hehehe. But for sure, there is a lot that could be "wrong" with the measurements, there's a lot that has to be discovered. I remember superluminous wave packets and how people went crazy about that at first too; and then we learned the real physics behind it and it all fell in place. I think that's what we're going to see here too...there will be some material property that we find.
    The notion of "causality" is nothing more than an idea that stems from a limitation in human perception--our inability to perceive more than one Minkowski reference frame at once and our inability to perceive the dimension denoted "time" in that frame in a non-sequential fashion.

    Sequential time is merely a psychic mechanism to perceive a series of 3-dimensional spaces. It is not a component of physics theory. SR only requires that the laws of physics are Lorentz invariant, that's it. It makes no stipulation on how T should be perceived.

    If someone goes back in time and changes something in the past that creates a different future from that which one knows at the time he attempts the change, one way to resolve the inconsistency (outside of adding a parallel universe) is for the person to simply forget about the previous future, and for that previous future to simply no longer exist in spacetime.

  4. #44
    Sage
    Higgins86's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    England
    Last Seen
    Yesterday @ 07:53 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    13,253

    Re: Second experiment confirms neutrinos travel faster than light

    It's certainly an interesting result, and the verification they did rules out what I thought was the error. It would be good to see another experiment confirm this, either in Chicago or in Japan. There are possible theories to explain this, but not many. It's quite exciting, and although I suspect it to be an error, it would be a massive game changer if it was true. Mind you, it's not the actual aim of the experiment, which is a measurement of something else to do with neutrinos, which will also be exciting when they release their 'actual' results

  5. #45
    Sage
    samsmart's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Last Seen
    @
    Gender
    Lean
    Other
    Posts
    10,316
    Blog Entries
    37

    Re: Second experiment confirms neutrinos travel faster than light

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    As objects approach the speed of light, time slows down for them. So if you get in a spaceship and spend an hour joyriding near the speed of light, many years will have passed on earth when you return. Theoretically, if you could travel at exactly the speed of light (which you can't), you would appear frozen in motion and the clocks on your spaceship would appear to have completely stopped to a person on earth who was looking in the window of your spaceship. But everything would appear normal to you until you stopped...then you'd notice that an infinite amount of time had passed and the universe was completely dead from heat death.

    The speed of light is a maximum speed because a lot of infinities happen if you could travel at exactly the speed of light. You'd become infinitely massive, you'd become infinitely thin, your line of vision would become infinitely narrow, distant objects would appear to have no distance at all, and an infinite amount of time would pass outside of your spaceship. This is why it is impossible for anything that has a mass (whether it's a spaceship or a neutrino) to travel at the speed of light.

    If something is exceeding the speed of light, that would mean that it was traveling backward in time, it would weigh more than the entire universe (or possibly weigh less than nothing), and it would have negative width. Therefore, color me skeptical.
    But that's just according to the math, right? Couldn't there a difference between what can be done on paper and what is done in the real world?

    For example, you can't take 5 grams of material from 3 grams of that same material. But that's a real world application. But that's different from the math of accounting, in which case a person can lose 5 dollars from an investment of 3 dollars.

    I mean I basically grasp the concepts concerning that as one gets closer to the speed of light the perception of time changes. But couldn't it be possible that what actually happens when something exceeds the speed of light uses a totally different set of equations or follow totally different sets of physics that doesn't run counter to causality?
    Also, we need to legalize recreational drugs and prostitution.

  6. #46
    Global Moderator
    The Hammer of Chaos
    Goshin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Dixie
    Last Seen
    Today @ 12:13 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    44,184

    Re: Second experiment confirms neutrinos travel faster than light

    Quote Originally Posted by samsmart View Post
    But that's just according to the math, right? Couldn't there a difference between what can be done on paper and what is done in the real world?

    For example, you can't take 5 grams of material from 3 grams of that same material. But that's a real world application. But that's different from the math of accounting, in which case a person can lose 5 dollars from an investment of 3 dollars.

    I mean I basically grasp the concepts concerning that as one gets closer to the speed of light the perception of time changes. But couldn't it be possible that what actually happens when something exceeds the speed of light uses a totally different set of equations or follow totally different sets of physics that doesn't run counter to causality?

    As Heinlein said, you can speculate and calculate the number of bannannas in a tree all day long... but you won't know for sure until you climb the tree and count them.

    Some of those questions are probably unanswerable, with certainty, until we can actually accelerate a thinking mind to a substantial fraction of c.

    Fiddling While Rome Burns
    ISIS: Carthago Delenda Est
    "I used to roll the dice; see the fear in my enemies' eyes... listen as the crowd would sing, 'now the old king is dead, Long Live the King.'.."

  7. #47
    Enemy Combatant
    Kandahar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Washington, DC
    Last Seen
    10-15-13 @ 08:47 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Liberal
    Posts
    20,688

    Re: Second experiment confirms neutrinos travel faster than light

    Quote Originally Posted by samsmart View Post
    But couldn't it be possible that what actually happens when something exceeds the speed of light uses a totally different set of equations or follow totally different sets of physics
    Possibly. But there is nothing in the known laws of physics to indicate that that would be the case. What especially interests me about this experiment is that even though the neutrinos supposedly exceeded the speed of light, they just barely exceeded it (a very small fraction of a percent). But once we've crossed that barrier there is theoretically no reason they couldn't travel much faster...at an arbitrarily fast speed.

    that doesn't run counter to causality?
    I don't see how (which isn't necessarily to say that it's impossible). Special relativity indicates that the laws of physics should look the same to everyone, regardless of their frame of reference. If neutrinos can travel faster than light, that means that it should be possible to send information faster than light. For example, if you stand on Earth and I stand on Betelgeuse and we fire beams of superluminal neutrinos at each other in Morse Code, we could communicate instantly even though we were 640 light-years apart.

    And being able to send information faster-than-light DOES have serious repercussions for causality. For example, suppose I've rigged up a series of Christmas lights in a straight line across our section of the galaxy. I've set them up so that I'll send a superluminal neutrino signal to Light 1, which will then turn itself on and send a superluminal signal to Light 2 to do the same, etc. If you're in a spaceship traveling at near the speed of light in the same direction as my superluminal neutrino signal, from your perspective you would see Light 2 turn itself on before Light 1 ever sent it a signal to do so! Since there is nothing special about my frame of reference, I can't say that my interpretation of causality is correct and yours is wrong. You would have witnessed an effect happening before its cause, and your perception of the events would be just as valid as mine.
    Are you coming to bed?
    I can't. This is important.
    What?
    Someone is WRONG on the internet! -XKCD

  8. #48
    Enemy Combatant
    Kandahar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Washington, DC
    Last Seen
    10-15-13 @ 08:47 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Liberal
    Posts
    20,688

    Re: Second experiment confirms neutrinos travel faster than light

    Not to mention that if neutrinos can travel faster than light, then so can macroscopic objects. If information can be sent faster than light, it opens the door to instantaneous teleportation across the universe. You could scan the position of every atom in your body, then step into a machine that would kill you, instantly transmit the information about your atomic composition to a receiver device on a distant world, and be reassembled by the receiver on that world.

    I have no idea what THAT would do to causality (or if relativity would even apply in such a bizarre situation) but it would certainly result in a lot of weirdness.
    Last edited by Kandahar; 11-21-11 at 10:26 PM.
    Are you coming to bed?
    I can't. This is important.
    What?
    Someone is WRONG on the internet! -XKCD

  9. #49
    Sage

    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Last Seen
    10-10-16 @ 10:59 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian
    Posts
    6,073

    Re: Second experiment confirms neutrinos travel faster than light

    I find it hard to believe that neutrinos, given their small extremely small mass, behave like little tennis balls even at near-light velocities. They should behave more like wave packets (i. e. photons or low energy electrons).

  10. #50
    Sage
    whysoserious's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Charlotte, NC
    Last Seen
    12-29-16 @ 03:02 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Liberal
    Posts
    8,170

    Re: Second experiment confirms neutrinos travel faster than light

    Quote Originally Posted by solletica View Post
    I find it hard to believe that neutrinos, given their small extremely small mass, behave like little tennis balls even at near-light velocities. They should behave more like wave packets (i. e. photons or low energy electrons).
    Isn't it generally accepted that those types of particles behave like both?
    Ted Cruz is the dumbest person alive.

Page 5 of 8 FirstFirst ... 34567 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •