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Thread: Second experiment confirms neutrinos travel faster than light

  1. #31
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    Re: Second experiment confirms neutrinos travel faster than light

    Nova has been doing some great stuff lately - I think they realized they needed to step it up after Through the Wormhole began it's awesomeness. The 2nd to last episode was about space and how it is not empty, and the last episode was about the relationship between time and space and the fabric of time. Looks like the next few are going to be good too:

    "The Fabric of the Cosmos: What is Space?"
    "The Fabric of the Cosmos: The Illusion of Time"
    "The Fabric of the Cosmos: Quantum Leap"
    "The Fabric of the Cosmos: Universe or Multiverse?"

    Quantum Leap should be good, and Multiverse stuff is interesting as well.
    Ted Cruz is the dumbest person alive.

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    Re: Second experiment confirms neutrinos travel faster than light

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    I can. Even many of the scientists involved have assumed that there is an error somewhere, but they published the paper because they can't figure it out on their own. Maybe someone else will.
    There are numerous ways for scientists to elicit peer review and seek assistance from the physics community. Publishing scientific papers in the Journal of High Energy Physics isn't one of those numerous ways. Clearly, the Opera Collaboration has endorsed their superluminal-neutrino submissions.

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    Re: Second experiment confirms neutrinos travel faster than light

    Quote Originally Posted by AdamT View Post
    Not exactly the first evidence. That would probably come from the world of quantum mechanics, e.g. Freaky Physics Proves Parallel Universes Exist | Fox News
    I am familiar with quantum physics also, but I didn't want to get that deep in my response.

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    Re: Second experiment confirms neutrinos travel faster than light

    Quote Originally Posted by Mustachio View Post
    I don't mean this as a back-handed compliment, but I'm actually amazed that you're interested in this! Maybe there's hope for you, yet
    Why is that? Because of my political lean, or because of my style of posting?

    Oh, and it's I that holds out hope for you...

  5. #35
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    Re: Second experiment confirms neutrinos travel faster than light

    Quote Originally Posted by Tashah View Post
    There are numerous ways for scientists to elicit peer review and seek assistance from the physics community. Publishing scientific papers in the Journal of High Energy Physics isn't one of those numerous ways.
    And once you have exhausted those alternative ways and you're still faced with a counterintuitive result, the academically honest thing to do is to publish what you have, even if it seems implausible (which it almost certainly is) and even if you're skeptical of the results yourself (as they should be).

    Clearly, the Opera Collaboration has endorsed their superluminal-neutrino submissions.
    Again, let's go with Occam's Razor: Of the following three explanations, which is the most likely:

    A) Both teams simply made a mistake in the experiment, or in their assumptions, and someone else will uncover it in the coming weeks or months.
    B) The teams made some reasonable assumption based on the known laws of physics, but some thus-far-unknown corollary to those laws exists which is skewing their results, without neutrinos actually exceeding light speed.
    C) Neutrinos are actually traveling faster than light, thus upending 100 years of physics, and despite the fact that there is no known mechanism by which a massive particle could get to that speed.

    I'm going to go with A, followed by B, followed by C, in terms of their order of likelihood.
    Last edited by Kandahar; 11-21-11 at 04:53 AM.
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    Re: Second experiment confirms neutrinos travel faster than light

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    I'm going to go with A, followed by B, followed by C, in terms of their order of likelihood.
    A is unlikely. I would be dumbfounded if 100+ scientists failed to detect a flaw/error in equipment/methodology.

    C is extremely unlikely. In my own field, the Opera results to not agree with relevant astrophysical data.

    I'll go with B. Although (c) remains invariant, I think it is possible they have stumbled upon a unique anomaly.

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    Re: Second experiment confirms neutrinos travel faster than light

    Quote Originally Posted by kaya'08 View Post
    If confirmed by other experiments, the find could undermine one of the basic principles of modern physics

    Insane!

    BBC News - Neutrino experiment repeat at Cern finds same result
    To be honest, I believe SR is correct but doesn't tell the whole story. The reality, IMHO, is that all matter defined to have a real mass is prohibited from exceeded light speed within a Minkowski reference frame. In other words, if the particle w/positive mass is considered to exist within an observer's Minkowski spacetime, then it must travel below the speed of light.

    However, nothing prevents a particle w/imaginary mass in a reference frame A, i. e. a particle that can only have a real mass in a reference frame that's superluminal w/respect to A, from exceeding the speed of light.

    These imaginary mass particles cannot be detected directly (since they don't exist, per se), but rather indirectly from its effects within frame A. And that's likely what happened in the experiment.

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    Re: Second experiment confirms neutrinos travel faster than light

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Not ONE OF the basic pillars. Causality is THE FUNDAMENTAL pillar. There's still a lot to be looked at. The fact of the matter is that this could be a material property. A while ago they had talked about light going faster than the speed of light through some material. The fact is that the photon wave packet could be detected apparently sooner than it should have been. But the phase information could not arrive faster than the speed of light. There was some interesting results of it and left hand chiral material tested; but it was all material property and interaction. Here they are shooting neutrinos through the earth, and there could be an effect as such.

    Want to do this right, you need a vacuum. If we had a cool Lunar Science Bay, we could aim the neutrinos there and know a hell of a lot better. It would be pretty difficult to drill a hole through the earth and evacuate the air.
    Causality is not necessarily violated w/reverse time travel. You can add parallel (i. e. forked) universes to hold alternate realities or have a single universe that instantly changes to account for actions to make itself causality-consistent.

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    Re: Second experiment confirms neutrinos travel faster than light

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    Before everyone gets too carried away, let's clarify what this second experiment did and didn't actually confirm. It did NOT confirm that neutrinos travel faster than light, it simply confirmed that whatever is causing the discrepancy wasn't due to a simple measurement error. If there is some systemic problem with the way the experiment was conducted, or if the experiment made an invalid assumption somewhere along the way, then it doesn't matter how many times you run the test and get the same result because the experiment itself is flawed.

    I remain highly skeptical of this result, and will continue to be skeptical until there is literally no other plausible explanation. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, as Carl Sagan famously said.
    In actuality, there is no way to know whether the superluminal neutrinos that arrived at the detector site came from the designated source. This is only assumed to be true based on an assumed validity of the statistical model used to measure the neutrino speeds.

    It's like if you throw a die 500 times, and 250/500 times the die shows 5 dots on top. Statistically, one would conclude that 3 faces of the die had 5 dots, but this does not mean that it's guaranteed that this is the case. It's only the case--based on the assumptions of the statistical model--that it's the most likely to be true.

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    Re: Second experiment confirms neutrinos travel faster than light

    Quote Originally Posted by Thunder View Post
    cool!!!!
    Can I get lottery numbers now?

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