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Thread: New poll shows majority support Walker recall

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    Re: New poll shows majority support Walker recall

    Quote Originally Posted by buck View Post
    Please note, as bolded in what I copied, that excludes PS union employee's pension and other benefits. Additionally, we already know that in WI, the state allocates 60% of their spending - minus what they send to local governments - to state union employees wage and benefits. Let's not go backwards, now. The above link indicates that the local governments spend roughly 46% just on wages/salary.
    OK, granted that unions were costing the state money, but that is where Walker's honesty ended, and his dishonesty began. The public sector unions agreed with every single cut that was demanded of them, yet Walker chose to bust the union anyways, even though Walker did not make unions an issue during his campaign. If he had, he would not have been elected in the first place. Walker's dishonesty is the single biggest factor in what led to the popular revolt against him.
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    Re: New poll shows majority support Walker recall

    Quote Originally Posted by danarhea View Post
    OK, granted that unions were costing the state money, but that is where Walker's honesty ended, and his dishonesty began. The public sector unions agreed with every single cut that was demanded of them, yet Walker chose to bust the union anyways, even though Walker did not make unions an issue during his campaign. If he had, he would not have been elected in the first place. Walker's dishonesty is the single biggest factor in what led to the popular revolt against him.
    Actually, he did make unions an issue in his campaign. He may not have mentioned every single thing that would take place - as few, if any, campaign ever does - but he did mention some specific items, such as freeing local governments from arbitration and mediation, voiding parts of union contracts, increasing the benefit contributions. The unions knew this, and ran campaign advertisements against him with this specifc information. I can probably find that again, if you need to see it (see link below).

    Lastly, the union's supposed agreement to contribute more was never in writing. They were using that as a talking point, IMO, in order to appear to be wililng to help and try to stop Walker's other reforms, but no actual agreement ever occured. In fact, many of the unions, the ones still under contract, refuse to contribute anymore to benefits.

    http://media.journalinteractive.com/...Walker+ATF.pdf

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    Re: New poll shows majority support Walker recall

    Quote Originally Posted by buck View Post
    Please note, as bolded in what I copied, that excludes PS union employee's pension and other benefits. Additionally, we already know that in WI, the state allocates 60% of their spending - minus what they send to local governments - to state union employees wage and benefits. Let's not go backwards, now. The above link indicates that the local governments spend roughly 46% just on wages/salary.
    Mmmm, I think you are jumping to several conclusions. The article you quoted says that the salaries and wages account for 26% of the state's budget, period. My assumption is that that includes state monies allocated to local government. Local government spends 46% of its monies on payroll, but all local revenue doesn't come directly from the state.

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    Re: New poll shows majority support Walker recall

    Quote Originally Posted by buck View Post
    Actually, he did make unions an issue in his campaign. He may not have mentioned every single thing that would take place - as few, if any, campaign ever does - but he did mention some specific items, such as freeing local governments from arbitration and mediation, voiding parts of union contracts, increasing the benefit contributions. The unions knew this, and ran campaign advertisements against him with this specifc information. I can probably find that again, if you need to see it (see link below).

    Lastly, the union's supposed agreement to contribute more was never in writing. They were using that as a talking point, IMO, in order to appear to be wililng to help and try to stop Walker's other reforms, but no actual agreement ever occured. In fact, many of the unions, the ones still under contract, refuse to contribute anymore to benefits.

    http://media.journalinteractive.com/...Walker+ATF.pdf
    Come on now, don't be ridiculous. He never suggested in any way shape or form that he intended to eliminate public workers' collective bargaining rights, and that is one of the first things he tried to do when he took office. Obviously it was a huge priority for him and one that he chose to keep hidden during the election.

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    Re: New poll shows majority support Walker recall

    Quote Originally Posted by AdamT View Post
    Mmmm, I think you are jumping to several conclusions. The article you quoted says that the salaries and wages account for 26% of the state's budget, period. My assumption is that that includes state monies allocated to local government. Local government spends 46% of its monies on payroll, but all local revenue doesn't come directly from the state.
    For someone that likes to be snarky and pretend others can't read, you sure have some issues.

    According to the CS article:
    1) Wages and salaries (excluding benefits) made up 38 percent of state and local spending
    2) Wages and salaries (excluding benefits) made up 46 percent of only the local's spending
    3) Wages and salaries (excluding benefits)account for 26 percent of only the state's spending

    Add benefits in, and you are well over 40 percent of the state and local spending going to PS union employees.

    For your review, I have copied the relevent piece of the article. You may want to note that wages and salaries are clearly defined in the first line as "exluding pension contributions and other benefits" (Bold). They then say just salary and wages are taking up 38% of state and local spending (underlined). They then break the total (state and local) spending down by local spending (46%)and by state spending (26%). Keep in mind, all of those percentages, do not include pension and other beneifts - strictly salary and wages.

    In 2007-2008 (the most current year data is available) wages and salaries–excluding pension contributions and other benefitsmade up 38 percent of state and local current spending. For local governments, wages and salaries represent 46 percent of current spending. For states, salaries and wages account for 26 percent.
    Last edited by buck; 11-20-11 at 01:37 AM.

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    Re: New poll shows majority support Walker recall

    Quote Originally Posted by AdamT View Post
    Come on now, don't be ridiculous. He never suggested in any way shape or form that he intended to eliminate public workers' collective bargaining rights, and that is one of the first things he tried to do when he took office. Obviously it was a huge priority for him and one that he chose to keep hidden during the election.
    I specifically mentioned in my reply that he didn't give every specific item. I don't recall Obama campaining that he was going to go forth with TARPII and all kinds of other things. However, Walker did say that there would be changes to mediation with unions, voiding contracts with unions, and requiring additional funding. So, when Dan indicated that Walker did not make unions an issue during his campaign, he was wrong.

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    Re: New poll shows majority support Walker recall

    Quote Originally Posted by buck View Post
    For someone that likes to be snarky and pretend others can't read, you sure have some issues.

    According to the CS article:
    1) Wages and salaries (excluding benefits) made up 38 percent of state and local spending
    2) Wages and salaries (excluding benefits) made up 46 percent of only the local's spending
    3) Wages and salaries (excluding benefits)account for 26 percent of only the state's spending

    Add benefits in, and you are well over 40 percent of the state and local spending going to PS union employees.

    For your review, I have copied the relevent piece of the article. wages and salries is defined in the first line as "pension contributions and other benefits".
    Again, state and local spending are separate items. State revenue sent to local governments is still state spending.

    And I haven't seen any figures suggesting how much benefits cost relative to wages and salaries. I'm sure it's a lot, but let's not pull figures from thin air.

    We could probably posit a figure somewhere between what I'm suggesting and what you're suggesting and it would be about right.

    All of which is really beside the point, which is that Walker is an ass. The unions had already agreed to essentially all of his demands. There was no reason to bust them. Clearly it was a political move more than a fiscal move, and it's one that he chose not to share with the voters when he was running for office. If he had he probably would not have won.

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    Re: New poll shows majority support Walker recall

    Quote Originally Posted by AdamT View Post
    Again, state and local spending are separate items. State revenue sent to local governments is still state spending.

    And I haven't seen any figures suggesting how much benefits cost relative to wages and salaries. I'm sure it's a lot, but let's not pull figures from thin air.

    We could probably posit a figure somewhere between what I'm suggesting and what you're suggesting and it would be about right..
    No. No, we can't. We can say, based on the CS monitor related to all states, not just WI, that 38% of the state and loca spending is provided to PS union employees. That's not even counting pension and other benefits. If you add benefits in, the state and loca psending is well above 38%. You can't arbitrarily just say let's pick a number between you and me.

    Here's another article with much the same numbers. However, this one includes benefits, and the percentage comes out to 44% of state and local spending.

    ■Total compensation. Spending on benefits such as health insurance and retirement is not reported to the Census but can be estimated using data from the Bureau of Labor Statistics. Adding these costs brings the total costs of compensation for state and local workers to about 44 percent of state and local spending. Some 20 percent of state spending is for employee compensation, compared to about 55 percent of local government spending. [6]
    Some Basic Facts on State and Local Government Workers — Center on Budget and Policy Priorities

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    Re: New poll shows majority support Walker recall

    Quote Originally Posted by buck View Post
    No. No, we can't. We can say, based on the CS monitor related to all states, not just WI, that 38% of the state and loca spending is provided to PS union employees. That's not even counting pension and other benefits. If you add benefits in, the state and loca psending is well above 38%. You can't arbitrarily just say let's pick a number between you and me.

    Here's another article with much the same numbers. However, this one includes benefits, and the percentage comes out to 44% of state and local spending.


    Some Basic Facts on State and Local Government Workers — Center on Budget and Policy Priorities
    Seriously? Your own quote says, without qualification, "Some 20 percent of state spending is for employee compensation."

    Walker is the governor -- not the mayor of cheesehead springs.

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    Re: New poll shows majority support Walker recall

    Quote Originally Posted by AdamT View Post
    All of which is really beside the point, which is that Walker is an ass. The unions had already agreed to essentially all of his demands. There was no reason to bust them. Clearly it was a political move more than a fiscal move, and it's one that he chose not to share with the voters when he was running for office. If he had he probably would not have won.
    The contributions would have been a short term savings. Ending the collective bargaining of the unions, where they were negotiating with people friendly to their cause (not the tax payers), was to gain long term savings. Without ending CB, the unions would have gained it all back pretty quickly. Wether it be increased wages, reduced contributions, whatever. In order to set things right for the long term, it was necessary.

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