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Thread: New poll shows majority support Walker recall

  1. #241
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    Re: New poll shows majority support Walker recall

    Quote Originally Posted by buck View Post

    Here's the problem with your attempt to grasp at straws to maintain your world view. The Seattle study you are responding to (apparently you want to ignore the federal study that shows federal employees make more in just salary then private employees in comparable jobs) found that public employees make more in just salary then private employees in 74 of 200 job comparisons.
    Maybe it's just me, but 74 out of 200 does not seem like a convincing argument. Are you shooting for 0 out of 200?

    Just including pensions (forget your evil "healthcare cabal" for a moment) signifcantly changes that and probably makes public overcompensated in nearly all 200 comparable jobs, private employees make far-far less then private employees in pension.
    Of course, you are conveniently ignoring the fact that the pension system preceded the 401k system by about 40 years, and that many state's have failed to fund their pensions---a faux pas for which, incidentally, any private entity would be indicted.

    Are public employees not entitled to some sort of retirement package or are they supposed to wander off onto some polar icesheet and quietly die?

    Now, including the evil "healthcare cabal" benefits will change that even futher. You can't ignore that portion of compensation just because you think healthcare charges are evil or blindly believe that they are fraudulently overcharging for the benefits. Insurance, which I assume is your real issue, adds little to the overall cost of healthcare. However, this is a completly different topic that I am not intersted in having.
    I do not care a whit whether you are interested in discussing the issue. The fact of the matter is that the healthcare cabal is extorting all of us, even you, though you are too much the fool to recognize it.

    Although, you could blame the unions for demanding better and more expensive health care benefits then private sector employees recieve and the government for caving into those requirements.
    ...or you could recognize that unions are the foundation of economic democracy and that many private sector unions do as well or better than many public sector unions in obtaining healthcare benefits for their members.

  2. #242
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    Re: New poll shows majority support Walker recall

    Quote Originally Posted by Sig View Post
    Maybe it's just me, but 74 out of 200 does not seem like a convincing argument. Are you shooting for 0 out of 200?
    I guess if I wanted to make up my own study. However, we are discussing a study that Catawba thought proved that state employees were underpaid. At least until he found out that pensions and health care benefits were not included - then he decided the study was not a good one. Anyway, that study found that 74 out of 200 job comparisons paid higher salary (just salary) to public sector emplyoees. The remaining 126 jobs comparisons paid higher salary to private sector. This did not include pensions other benefits. Including both of those chages things drastically and probably woudl result in 200 out of 200 comparable jobs being higher compensated in the public sector.

    There was a similar study done on the federal level, which found that 83% of comparable jobs resulted in higher salary in the public sector. Again, this just looked at salary, and does not include pensions or other benefits. Including pensions and other benefits would probably result in 100%.

    Of course, you are conveniently ignoring the fact that the pension system preceded the 401k system by about 40 years, and that many state's have failed to fund their pensions---a faux pas for which, incidentally, any private entity would be indicted.
    I am not ignoring anything. And this argument doesn't sway a thing. Wether the pension came before the 401k or if the pension system is fully funded has no bearing on the fact that public sector unions recieve much more in benefit per year from retirement packages then private sector employees. If I recall correctly (and I could be off by a bit, but not much) public sector employees earn an average of $40k per year from retirement benefits but only $9k in the private sector.

    Are public employees not entitled to some sort of retirement package or are they supposed to wander off onto some polar icesheet and quietly die?
    Not sure I would say entitled. No one is entitled. However, if they do get a retirement package it should not be one that makes them vastly overpaid compared to the private sector work force - especially since it's not something we can afford any longer..

    I do not care a whit whether you are interested in discussing the issue. The fact of the matter is that the healthcare cabal is extorting all of us, even you, though you are too much the fool to recognize it.
    I used to work in the evil "healthcare cabal". They are not extorting us. We recieve a lot of benefit from the cost we pay. However, again, that's another topic. If you want to discuss that, start a new topic. I won't participiate, because I just don't care enough in arguing something so silly.

    ...or you could recognize that unions are the foundation of economic democracy and that many private sector unions do as well or better than many public sector unions in obtaining healthcare benefits for their members.
    I have no issue with private sector unions. I do not like them, but private companies engaged in negotiations with a union will result in much different outcomes then a public sector union engaged in negotiations with the government, which they then turn around and provide campaign contributions and voters.

    Trying to say that health care benefits are the reason that public employees make more then private employees is a rather assinine argument. Both private and public employees recieve health care benefits from their employer. The probelm is that public sector employees are recieving much higher levels of benefits.
    Last edited by buck; 11-28-11 at 12:36 AM.

  3. #243
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    Re: New poll shows majority support Walker recall

    Quote Originally Posted by Sig View Post
    Has it ever occurred to you that some of these federal employees actually perform a much needed function, that they are not getting paid for nothing?
    Yes, as private sector employees do. However, that doesn't mean that the public sector emploees should be compensated at higher rates then the private sector employee. Especially since we can no longer afford it.

    BTW: The WSJ is not exactly an unbiased source.
    My fault. It was actually the USA Today, and wether it's biased or not, it is less biased then EPI.


    It's a matter of priorities. I can only speculate as to what is wrong with your soul that you should be principally concerned with the salaries of middle-class employees, while only secondarily concerned with the salaries of upper-class millionaires who are getting filthy rich by continuing to rip-off the taxpayer.
    Related to companies engaged in procurement fraud, i've stated over and over, it's bad and should be stopped. However, stopping it will not put a dent in the budget. It's such a small percetnage of the overall budget. Stopping what public sector unions are doing to us will put a huge dent in the budget. PS union employees make up over 50.0% of the local governments budget and 20.0% of the state's budget (40.0% overall). That's where real change can occur.

    Actually, they are accusing the contractors of charging more than fair market value. This is the point. I suppose you need them to state it directly?
    Actually, they are not. They are saying that contract employees make more then government employees. The same is true at my place of employement. It is cheaper to hire someone then to hire a contractor. This does not mean that the contractor is being paid above FMV. Yes, having them state it directly rather then just having you make up what you think they meant is always preferable.
    Last edited by buck; 11-28-11 at 12:49 AM.

  4. #244
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    Re: New poll shows majority support Walker recall

    Quote Originally Posted by buck View Post
    No. Like how you believe that the Seattle study proves that PS employees are underpaid until it's pointed out that the study indicates that they didn't include pension/benefits which proves that PS employees actually make more... then all of a sudden you dont like the study.

    Or how you'll point out bias of the group performing the study that doesn't agree with your conclusion, but ignore the bias of the group doing the study you agree with.
    Yet another study that confirms teachers total compensation lower than private sector:

    "I recently completed a statistical analysis of what has happened to the earnings of an average college graduate employed in the private sector in the U.S. since 1995 and what has happened to the earnings of an average college educated teacher in Wisconsin. The data on private sector earnings of college educated workers is collected by the U.S. Census Bureau and is widely used by scholars. The Wisconsin teacher data comes directly from the State of Wisconsin and is available to anyone. It includes detailed data on all public school teachers in Wisconsin.
    *
    My analysis shows that from 1995-2009, the average privat -sector college graduate saw his/her weekly earnings increase by 10 percent after accounting for inflation. In contrast, from 1995 to 2010 the average teacher in Wisconsin saw his/her salary (without fringe benefits) decline by 10 percent after accounting for inflation. To state this another way, in 2009 a typical private sector college educated worker could buy 10 percent more goods and services with their salary compared to what the average worker could buy in 1995. However, the average Wisconsin teacher could buy 10 percent less in 2010 compared to 1995.* Wisconsin teachers did not keep up with inflation and they also fell behind their college educated private sector counterparts. In 1995 the average college educated private sector worker in the U.S. earned 17 percent more than a Wisconsin teacher and in 2009 this gap had increased to 36 percent.

    It has been argued that while the salaries of public sector workers have not risen dramatically, expenditures on their benefits, especially health insurance benefits, have increased dramatically. While this is true, health insurance premium costs have also increased in the private sector. Data from the Kaiser Family Foundation shows the average premium cost for family coverage provided to private sector employees (who are mostly non-union) increased from $5.742 in 1999 to $13,770 in 2010 (adjusting to the 2009 price level).* While I donít have premium and copayment data for Wisconsin school districts, in Illinois over the 1993-2008 time period the average inflation adjusted premium (2009 price level) for a family health insurance policy for Illinois teachers increased from $5,758 to $10,905. *Governor Walker has argued and proposes in his bill that public sector employees should pay at least 12 percent of the cost of health insurance through their employee premium copayments.* He argues this copayment needs to be mandated by the state because private sector workers have higher premium copayments compared to public sector workers. This argument misses a key point about how health insurance premiums and employee copayments influence other employment outcomes such as wages.*

    A standard prediction in economics is that in a competitive labor market two identical workers are expected to receive the same total compensation where total compensation equals salary plus fringe benefits. Thus, economics predicts that if one worker has more generous health insurance benefits he/she will receive a lower wage compared to a comparable worker with less generous benefits.* While it may appear to local school districts and the state of Wisconsin that employers pay most of the cost of health insurance because they write the check to the insurance company, economic theory predicts that employees will eventually pay for the insurance through wages that are lower than what they would receive if they had less generous benefits."
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  5. #245
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    Re: New poll shows majority support Walker recall

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    Yet another study that confirms teachers total compensation lower than private sector:

    "I recently completed a statistical analysis of what has happened to the earnings of an average college graduate employed in the private sector in the U.S. since 1995 and what has happened to the earnings of an average college educated teacher in Wisconsin. The data on private sector earnings of college educated workers is collected by the U.S. Census Bureau and is widely used by scholars. The Wisconsin teacher data comes directly from the State of Wisconsin and is available to anyone. It includes detailed data on all public school teachers in Wisconsin.
    *
    My analysis shows that from 1995-2009, the average privat -sector college graduate saw his/her weekly earnings increase by 10 percent after accounting for inflation. In contrast, from 1995 to 2010 the average teacher in Wisconsin saw his/her salary (without fringe benefits) decline by 10 percent after accounting for inflation. To state this another way, in 2009 a typical private sector college educated worker could buy 10 percent more goods and services with their salary compared to what the average worker could buy in 1995. However, the average Wisconsin teacher could buy 10 percent less in 2010 compared to 1995.* Wisconsin teachers did not keep up with inflation and they also fell behind their college educated private sector counterparts. In 1995 the average college educated private sector worker in the U.S. earned 17 percent more than a Wisconsin teacher and in 2009 this gap had increased to 36 percent.

    It has been argued that while the salaries of public sector workers have not risen dramatically, expenditures on their benefits, especially health insurance benefits, have increased dramatically. While this is true, health insurance premium costs have also increased in the private sector. Data from the Kaiser Family Foundation shows the average premium cost for family coverage provided to private sector employees (who are mostly non-union) increased from $5.742 in 1999 to $13,770 in 2010 (adjusting to the 2009 price level).* While I don’t have premium and copayment data for Wisconsin school districts, in Illinois over the 1993-2008 time period the average inflation adjusted premium (2009 price level) for a family health insurance policy for Illinois teachers increased from $5,758 to $10,905. *Governor Walker has argued and proposes in his bill that public sector employees should pay at least 12 percent of the cost of health insurance through their employee premium copayments.* He argues this copayment needs to be mandated by the state because private sector workers have higher premium copayments compared to public sector workers. This argument misses a key point about how health insurance premiums and employee copayments influence other employment outcomes such as wages.*

    A standard prediction in economics is that in a competitive labor market two identical workers are expected to receive the same total compensation where total compensation equals salary plus fringe benefits. Thus, economics predicts that if one worker has more generous health insurance benefits he/she will receive a lower wage compared to a comparable worker with less generous benefits.* While it may appear to local school districts and the state of Wisconsin that employers pay most of the cost of health insurance because they write the check to the insurance company, economic theory predicts that employees will eventually pay for the insurance through wages that are lower than what they would receive if they had less generous benefits."
    Opinion Editorial Posts by Public-Sector Employment Issues | EPRN
    Most everyone in the private sector is underpaid...and have been stripped of their benefits...and the ceo pay just SOARS AND SOARS....and so does the profits...alot at the expense of their workers...and the private sector has been brainwashed into being jealous of the public workers...and GIVE THE PIGS AT THE TROUGH A PASS...its sad how they have been manipulated into blaming other WORKING CLASS by the pigs at the trough...like grover norquist and the teaparty governors..

  6. #246
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    Re: New poll shows majority support Walker recall

    Quote Originally Posted by lpast View Post
    Most everyone in the private sector is underpaid...and have been stripped of their benefits...and the ceo pay just SOARS AND SOARS....and so does the profits...alot at the expense of their workers...and the private sector has been brainwashed into being jealous of the public workers...and GIVE THE PIGS AT THE TROUGH A PASS...its sad how they have been manipulated into blaming other WORKING CLASS by the pigs at the trough...like grover norquist and the teaparty governors..
    And then this information is used in the right wing driven Race To The Bottom where each state is pitted against the other to see who will be the first to have a majority of minimum wage workers with no benefits. And when that is no longer enough, it will pit Americans against third world children to see who will enjoy the right to work for crumbs and scraps. And of course, all this will be part of the Great and Glorious FREE MARKET solution that is not to be questioned, not to be challenged and most certainly not to be opposed or fought against by workers joining together in unions.

    Who wants to win that race to the bottom?
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  7. #247
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    Re: New poll shows majority support Walker recall

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    Yet another study that confirms teachers total compensation lower than private sector:
    Hopefully you actually read this one to confirm it confirms what you believe. I've already acknowledged there are studies saying one thing and studies saying another. I don't know enough about this study to really comment, but the people that were responsible for it are not in the least unbiased - although the bias confirms your belief, so I am sure you'll just ignore it.

    They themselves are tied into the union and the "Labor and Employment Relations Association" which is itself closely tied into the unions and, of course, the EPI - which is also closely related to unions. It's like one big incestuous group putting out studies under different names saying roughly the same thing. Do you think a group run by unions is really going to find anything other then "we are all underpaid"?

    BTW, since the groups are tied into the EPI, I wonder if they had the same flaws in their study. Somehow, it wouldn't surprise me.

  8. #248
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    Re: New poll shows majority support Walker recall

    Quote Originally Posted by lpast View Post
    Most everyone in the private sector is underpaid...and have been stripped of their benefits...and the ceo pay just SOARS AND SOARS....and so does the profits...alot at the expense of their workers...and the private sector has been brainwashed into being jealous of the public workers...and GIVE THE PIGS AT THE TROUGH A PASS...its sad how they have been manipulated into blaming other WORKING CLASS by the pigs at the trough...like grover norquist and the teaparty governors..
    There have been studies showing that is not at all true. There have been at least two newspapers (Seattle Times and the USA today), one that Catawba tried to use as proof for his position until he found out it didn't really confirm his position showing that in comparable jobs, public sector employees are paid more then private sector employees (salary and benefits). Keep in mind, this was comparing jobs that have roughly the same responsibilities.
    Last edited by buck; 11-28-11 at 09:17 AM.

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