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Thread: New poll shows majority support Walker recall

  1. #231
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    Re: New poll shows majority support Walker recall

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    Teachers are not federal employees.
    I've been talking about public sector employees the whole time. Not just teachers.

    Right below this part you quoted without giving the source credit, "However, such analyses don't tell the whole story because the government and private-sector work forces are composed very differently. Washington state's payroll, for instance, includes relatively more high-earning occupations, such as educators and finance specialists, and relatively fewer low-earning occupations, such as wait staff and retail clerks."Local News | How state workers' pay really stacks up | Seattle Times Newspaper
    Yeah.. I didn't think I would have to give a source since, you know, it's from the exact article you were originally quoting in the seattle times. So now I have to ask why you are quoting sources that you don't even, apparently, agree with and now that it got called out are actively trying to dimsmiss? Well done my friend. You may want to follow the link in your original cite, if you don't believe me.

    Problems too insignificant, or too lame, to bother citing here we must assume.
    Well.. No. I've already cited the source ealier in this thread. This is my point, though. You couldn't even be bothered to look at it. It doesn't confirm your bias, so has to be discarded. The problems with the study: The author of the study from EPI didn't calculate retiree health benefits correctly. Public workers retire much earlier then in private employment. So, this can be significant. Differences in the way pensions were calculated. Job security is a benefit that was not taken into account, many people will take a lower salary in order to enjoy job security and has to be included in any study on the subject.

    Another non-related link about Federal pay and one from the most biased organization out there.
    Well, no, EPI and Heritage BOTH are two of the most biased sources out there. You keep wanting to dismiss the bias in your own cited studies to call out the biases in conflicting studies. If you are going to quote biased studies, expect to have biased studies thrown back. I've readily acknowledged that Heritage is right wing. EPI is every bit as biased on the opposite end.

    Anyway, I provided two studies. One was directly related to teacher pay. You really are batting a thousand. Aren't you?

    Now, again, I don't expect to change your mind, as evidenced by your dismissal of the seattle times study that you originally quoted when you thought it proved your point then quickly discarded when you found out that it didn't. I am only pointing out that there are conflicting studies and it is not nearly as as black and white as you believe.
    Last edited by buck; 11-26-11 at 09:47 AM.

  2. #232
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    Re: New poll shows majority support Walker recall

    Quote Originally Posted by buck View Post
    Nope I don't want an itemized list. I want a study, and trust me if the percentage you believe of a states budget was spent in this way studies would be done. It's a lot of money. I agree, it should be fixed. However, as a percentage of the overall budget, it's low. Anyway, do you have a study?
    How's this?

    Defense Contractors bilked taxpayers out of a trillion dollars - National economic policy | Examiner.com

    ..or this?

    http://www.ombwatch.org/node/11865

    ...or this?

    http://www.truth-out.org/guess-what-...ees/1315928973
    Last edited by Sig; 11-26-11 at 12:37 PM.

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    Re: New poll shows majority support Walker recall

    A possible 100 bil per year is a lot of money - this sounds like its the high end of the estimate, BTW, so is likely less. However, it's not much when compared to the size of the annual budget. And this is from the defense department, which constitutes a large portion of the federal budget and has the most opportunities. So, this would likely be higher then any of the other departments combined.


    This isn't an example of overcharging. No one has accused the contractors of fraud, which is what you were complaining about, or overcharging the government. They are only saying that contractor's cost more. I'm not certain I agree, but it's off topic enough that I am not going to bother looking it up. I have no desire to start a whole new topic of discussion.

    This is the same report as the last one, just from a more biased source. Good try, though.
    Last edited by buck; 11-26-11 at 01:16 PM.

  4. #234
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    Re: New poll shows majority support Walker recall

    Quote Originally Posted by buck View Post
    I am only pointing out that there are conflicting studies and it is not nearly as as black and white as you believe.
    Like there are conflicting studies regarding AGW???
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

  5. #235
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    Re: New poll shows majority support Walker recall

    Quote Originally Posted by buck View Post

    A possible 100 bil per year is a lot of money - this sounds like its the high end of the estimate, BTW, so is likely less. However, it's not much when compared to the size of the annual budget. And this is from the defense department, which constitutes a large portion of the federal budget and has the most opportunities. So, this would likely be higher then any of the other departments combined.
    And what is this compared to the salaries of federal employees? How can you possbibly complain about middle class public employees being "overpaid" in the face of such outrageous mega larceny?

    Where is your mind?


    This isn't an example of overcharging. No one has accused the contractors of fraud, which is what you were complaining about, or overcharging the government. They are only saying that contractor's cost more. I'm not certain I agree, but it's off topic enough that I am not going to bother looking it up. I have no desire to start a whole new topic of discussion.
    I am complaining about both criminal overcharging and moral overcharging. Point of fact, it is the moral overcharging, wherein sweetheart contracts allow the private vendor to charge more than fair market value in order to recoup the costs of essentially bribing our elected officials for granting them the contract that is the most insidious, and the most costly.


    This is the same report as the last one, just from a more biased source. Good try, though.
    I wanted you to read it twice.
    Last edited by Sig; 11-27-11 at 10:37 AM.

  6. #236
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    Re: New poll shows majority support Walker recall

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    Like there are conflicting studies regarding AGW???
    No. Like how you believe that the Seattle study proves that PS employees are underpaid until it's pointed out that the study indicates that they didn't include pension/benefits which proves that PS employees actually make more... then all of a sudden you dont like the study.

    Or how you'll point out bias of the group performing the study that doesn't agree with your conclusion, but ignore the bias of the group doing the study you agree with.
    Last edited by buck; 11-27-11 at 11:14 AM.

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    Re: New poll shows majority support Walker recall

    Quote Originally Posted by Sig View Post
    And what is this compared to the salaries of federal employees? How can you possbibly complain about middle class public employees being "overpaid" in the face of such outrageous mega larceny?
    Federal employee compensation makes up a much higher percentge of the overall budget then what you are describing. $100 bill is a lot of money. We should put a stop to it. However, it's not a high percentage of the budget and getting rid of it wil not even make a dent in the total budget. THat is all I ever said.

    Where is your mind?
    Where is yours? You complain about private companies overcharging the government - which is a legitimate argument - but then give a pass to the fact that federal employees are overcharging the government when compared to what private employees make for comparable jobs, as illustrated in many studies and one that I copied above (Wall Street Journal, if I recall correctly).

    I am complaining about both criminal overcharging and moral overcharging. Point of fact, it is the moral overcharging, wherein sweetheart contracts allow the private vendor to charge more than fair market value in order to recoup the costs of essentially bribing our elected officials for granting them the contract that is the most insidious, and the most costly.
    No one has accused the contractors of charging more then fair market value. They are only claiming that federal employees can do it cheaper. You should really read the articles before you post them. Catawba can use that advice too. Again, I don't agree with the articles conclusion, but I really don't want to start the new topic.

    I wanted you to read it twice.
    Not really. You just did a yahoo search, found things you thought proved your point and copied them blindly. Apparently didn't even read them.

  8. #238
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    Re: New poll shows majority support Walker recall

    Quote Originally Posted by buck View Post
    No. Like how you believe that the Seattle study proves that PS employees are underpaid until it's pointed out that the study indicates that they didn't include pension/benefits, then all of a sudden you dont like the study.
    What you do not seem to understand about benefits is that the public employee has no control over what the healthcare cabal charges for its goods and services.

    What is more, the public employee should not be blamed for the fact that the government is allowing the healthcare cabal to extort the government and its citizenry by overcharging Medicare and Medicaid, as well as overcharging for healthcare packages offered to the employees of both public and private industry.

    Middle class public employees are just as much victims of the healthcare cabal as anyone else. They are certainly not conspirators.

  9. #239
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    Re: New poll shows majority support Walker recall

    Quote Originally Posted by Sig View Post
    What you do not seem to understand about benefits is that the public employee has no control over what the healthcare cabal charges for its goods and services.

    What is more, the public employee should not be blamed for the fact that the government is allowing the healthcare cabal to extort the government and its citizenry by overcharging Medicare and Medicaid, as well as overcharging for healthcare packages offered to the employees of both public and private industry.

    Middle class public employees are just as much victims of the healthcare cabal as anyone else. They are certainly not conspirators.
    Here's the problem with your attempt to grasp at straws to maintain your world view. The Seattle study you are responding to (apparently you want to ignore the federal study that shows federal employees make more in just salary then private employees in comparable jobs) found that public employees make more in just salary then private employees in 74 of 200 job comparisons.

    Just including pensions (forget your evil "healthcare cabal" for a moment) signifcantly changes that and probably makes public overcompensated in nearly all 200 comparable jobs, private employees make far-far less then private employees in pension.

    Now, including the evil "healthcare cabal" benefits will change that even futher. You can't ignore that portion of compensation just because you think healthcare charges are evil or blindly believe that they are fraudulently overcharging for the benefits. Insurance, which I assume is your real issue, adds little to the overall cost of healthcare. However, this is a completly different topic that I am not intersted in having.

    Although, you could blame the unions for demanding better and more expensive health care benefits then private sector employees recieve and the government for caving into those requirements.
    Last edited by buck; 11-27-11 at 12:04 PM.

  10. #240
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    Re: New poll shows majority support Walker recall

    Quote Originally Posted by buck View Post
    Federal employee compensation makes up a much higher percentge of the overall budget then what you are describing. $100 bill is a lot of money. We should put a stop to it. However, it's not a high percentage of the budget and getting rid of it wil not even make a dent in the total budget. THat is all I ever said.
    Has it ever occurred to you that some of these federal employees actually perform a much needed function, that they are not getting paid for nothing?

    BTW: The WSJ is not exactly an unbiased source.


    Where is yours? You complain about private companies overcharging the government - which is a legitimate argument - but then give a pass to the fact that federal employees are overcharging the government when compared to what private employees make for comparable jobs, as illustrated in many studies and one that I copied above (Wall Street Journal, if I recall correctly).
    It's a matter of priorities. I can only speculate as to what is wrong with your soul that you should be principally concerned with the salaries of middle-class employees, while only secondarily concerned with the salaries of upper-class millionaires who are getting filthy rich by continuing to rip-off the taxpayer.

    No one has accused the contractors of charging more then fair market value. They are only claiming that federal employees can do it cheaper. You should really read the articles before you post them. Catawba can use that advice too. Again, I don't agree with the articles conclusion, but I really don't want to start the new topic.
    Actually, they are accusing the contractors of charging more than fair market value. This is the point. I suppose you need them to state it directly?
    Last edited by Sig; 11-27-11 at 05:15 PM.

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