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Thread: New poll shows majority support Walker recall

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    Re: New poll shows majority support Walker recall

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    I am the one that has actually cited several unbiased studies on this forum
    You cited two studies and both are not unbiased. EPI is a lefty organization just as biased as Heritage is. Take a look at their board of directors then tell me with a straight face they are unbiased. You seem to think that Ezra (who himself is biased) commenting on the EPI study is a whole separate study.

    And I have provided a researched and sourced argument to the study you provided. That is more then just my opinion.

    The fact that you are unaware of other studies is your fault. Not mine. If I was only looking for studies to confirm my own bias, I would be just as clueless as you of all the studies that refute my position.
    Last edited by buck; 11-25-11 at 11:10 PM.

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    Re: New poll shows majority support Walker recall

    Quote Originally Posted by buck View Post
    Well, Al Gore and I disagree. Regulation absolutely results in the government paying more then what an everyday consumer would. There are many real life examples. I gave 2. Ashtrays at the federal level and housing demolition at the local level.
    I can understand Al Gore's motivation for skirting the issue. I do not understand yours.


    I am assuming that since you haven't posted, or even hinted at, a study (non partisan preferred) showing that "all our tax revenue" has gone to private companies overcharging the government means you don't have one. If you do, post it. But I find it a rather silly supposition on your part. Yes, there is government waste as you describe. Yes, as real dollars it could be signifcanct. However, the total overpaymets are a small percentage of the overall budget.
    As you are well aware, I never suggested all our tax revenues have gone to private companies overcharging the government. Please refrain from assuming such an obtuse pose. It's annoying. I have suggested that private industry's habit of gouging the government is considerably more responsible for our depleted treasuries at the federal, state, and local levels of government than the salaries of public employees.

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    Re: New poll shows majority support Walker recall

    Quote Originally Posted by Sig View Post
    I can understand Al Gore's motivation for skirting the issue. I do not understand yours.
    The government verpays all the time for goods due to government regulations. I am all for getting rid of the fraud and waste - including overpayment for goodsdue to ridiculous requiremtns the government sets out.


    have suggested that private industry's habit of gouging the government is considerably more responsible for our depleted treasuries at the federal, state, and local levels of government than the salaries of public employees.
    I have realized for a long time, and acknowledged a couple of times in this thread, that the government is overcharged and will overpay many times. Despite your insistence it's just not true, the government also overpays due to regulations. Anyway, I do not argue and never have argued that the government does not overpay.

    I asked for a study showing that, as you keep contending, that the overcharges are a signifcant percentage of the budget. Instead you provide links showing that companies have overhcharged and a few opinion pieces that are fairly worthless. Now, do you have a study showing what percentage of the budget the overpayments are? Because, as much money as the stuff you posted is, it's still peanuts - actually peanuts is being very generous - when compared to the overal budget.
    Last edited by buck; 11-25-11 at 11:31 PM.

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    Re: New poll shows majority support Walker recall

    Quote Originally Posted by buck View Post
    The government verpays all the time for goods due to government regulations. I am all for getting rid of the fraud and waste - including overpayment for goodsdue to ridiculous requiremtns the government sets out.
    The overwhelming majority of the time which the government overpays has NOTHING to do with regulations and EVERYTHING to do with pay-to-play politics. Albeit, in many instances, regulations may have been instituted for the very purpose of providing an excuse for overcharging.


    I asked for a study showing that, as you keep contending, that the overcharges are a signifcant percentage of the budget. Instead you provide links showing that companies have overhcharged and a few opinion pieces that are fairly worthless. Now, do you have a study showing what percentage of the budget the overpayments are? Because, as much money as the stuff you posted is, it's still peanuts - actually peanuts is being very generous - when compared to the overal budget.
    The stuff I posted is a mere drop in the bucket. Some of these are instances where the vendor merely got exposed. If you want me to provide an item for item list comparing what every state and local government in the land (nevermind the feds) pays for everything from toilet paper to computers to office space--compared to the going market rates for the same items--we could be here a very long time. Suffice to say, that in some instances the overcharge is subtle while in others it is obnoxious. The bottom line is that when you tally it all up, it is astronomically more than mere "peanuts."

    If you want to be a crusader for cutting back on government spending, start crusading for state and federal laws making it illegal for any agency of federal, state, and local governments to pay one dime more than fair market value for any goods and services it purchases from the private sector.

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    Re: New poll shows majority support Walker recall

    Quote buck

    That was just a response to the specific study.
    I read the study and I didnít come to the conclusion that they were responding any specific study. If I were responding to a "specific study " I donít believe that I would start out asking a question such as ďAre California Public Employees Overpaid?Ē


    They chose CA, because they have more data available, and the report they were responding to included a lot of info on CA.
    What report were they responding to? Was it a Ca. specific report?

    They, IMO and as evidenced by the Heritage report, made some errors in their calculations and assumptions. If that doesn't make you think that it's just possible they did it in other states, I don't know what to tell you.

    The sure did make errors,its not opinion, its fact.

    Fact=more education, more dough, whether its private, of public sector. Fact= 50% of California citizens have a college degree as apposed to Wisconsinís 40.2%.
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    Re: New poll shows majority support Walker recall

    Quote Originally Posted by buck View Post
    You cited two studies and both are not unbiased. EPI is a lefty organization just as biased as Heritage is. Take a look at their board of directors then tell me with a straight face they are unbiased. You seem to think that Ezra (who himself is biased) commenting on the EPI study is a whole separate study.

    And I have provided a researched and sourced argument to the study you provided. That is more then just my opinion.

    The fact that you are unaware of other studies is your fault. Not mine. If I was only looking for studies to confirm my own bias, I would be just as clueless as you of all the studies that refute my position.
    The sources I cited:

    "x

    Nationally, state and local governments spent $26.25 per hour per
    employee in 2010, with 34% of total compensation represented by benefits.
    Private industry employers spent $27.88 per hour, with 29.4% for benefits.3

    x

    A study of national data controlling for education, work experience, annual
    hours worked, organizational size and other factors
    found that total
    compensation was 1.8% less for local government employees and 7.6% less
    for state government employees than for comparable private sector
    workers.4

    x

    A separate study found that state government employees across the
    country earned 6.8% less in total compensation than comparable private
    sector peers between 2000 and 2008, and local government employees
    earned 7.4% less.5

    x

    According to an analysis by the Seattle Times, median wages for the same
    type of work was lower for Washington state government workers than in the
    private sector in the majority of nearly 200 occupational categories
    examined. State government workers tended to earn higher wages in lower
    paying jobs."

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    EPI Study - "the Economic Policy Institute conducted comparing total compensation -- that is to say, wages and health-care benefits and pensions -- among public and private workers in Wisconsin. To get an apples-to-apples comparison, the study's author controlled for experience, organizational size, gender, race, ethnicity, citizenship and disability, and then sorted the results by education"
    Ezra Klein - Are Wisconsin's state and local workers overpaid?

    "New research by a University of Illinois expert in employment relations and labor economics shows that, for more than a decade, Wisconsin teacher salaries have fallen behind changes in the cost of living as well as wage growth in the private sector. Craig A. Olson, a professor of labor and employment relations, says the salaries of Wisconsin teachers have lost ground to those of their private sector counterparts over the last 16 years.


    The paper compares the earnings of an average college graduate employed in the private sector in the U.S. versus the earnings of an average college-educated teacher in Wisconsin through public data from 1995 to the present."
    Study: Over 16-year span, Wisconsin teacher salaries lag private sector wages |News Bureau | University of Illinois



    Vs the sources you have cited:

    Zero..........zip...........nada...............
    Last edited by Catawba; 11-26-11 at 01:17 AM.
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    Re: New poll shows majority support Walker recall

    Quote Originally Posted by Sig View Post
    The stuff I posted is a mere drop in the bucket. Some of these are instances where the vendor merely got exposed. If you want me to provide an item for item list comparing what every state and local government in the land (nevermind the feds) pays for everything from toilet paper to computers to office space--compared to the going market rates for the same items--we could be here a very long time. Suffice to say, that in some instances the overcharge is subtle while in others it is obnoxious. The bottom line is that when you tally it all up, it is astronomically more than mere "peanuts."

    If you want to be a crusader for cutting back on government spending, start crusading for state and federal laws making it illegal for any agency of federal, state, and local governments to pay one dime more than fair market value for any goods and services it purchases from the private sector.
    Nope I don't want an itemized list. I want a study, and trust me if the percentage you believe of a states budget was spent in this way studies would be done. It's a lot of money. I agree, it should be fixed. However, as a percentage of the overall budget, it's low. Anyway, do you have a study?

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    Re: New poll shows majority support Walker recall

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    The sources I cited:

    Nationally, state and local governments spent $26.25 per hour per
    employee in 2010, with 34% of total compensation represented by benefits.
    Private industry employers spent $27.88 per hour, with 29.4% for benefits.
    Federal pay ahead of private industry - USATODAY.comFederal employees earn higher average salaries than private-sector workers in more than eight out of 10 occupations, a USA TODAY analysis of federal data finds.
    Accountants, nurses, chemists, surveyors, cooks, clerks and janitors are among the wide range of jobs that get paid more on average in the federal government than in the private sector.
    Overall, federal workers earned an average salary of $67,691 in 2008 for occupations that exist both in government and the private sector, according to Bureau of Labor Statistics data. The average pay for the same mix of jobs in the private sector was $60,046 in 2008, the most recent data available.
    These salary figures do not include the value of health, pension and other benefits, which averaged $40,785 per federal employee in 2008 vs. $9,882 per private worker, according to the Bureau of Economic Analysis.


    According to an analysis by the Seattle Times, median wages for the same
    type of work was lower for Washington state government workers than in the
    private sector in the majority of nearly 200 occupational categories
    examined. State government workers tended to earn higher wages in lower
    paying jobs."
    The Times did not compare state health-care plans and pensions to the private sector. Such benefits are a major part of total state employee compensation — about 30 percent, on average — but are difficult to put present-day dollar values on and even harder to compare across different employers and job categories.


    EPI Study - "the Economic Policy Institute conducted comparing total compensation -- that is to say, wages and health-care benefits and pensions -- among public and private workers in Wisconsin. To get an apples-to-apples comparison, the study's author controlled for experience, organizational size, gender, race, ethnicity, citizenship and disability, and then sorted the results by education"
    Ezra Klein - Are Wisconsin's state and local workers overpaid?
    Further analysis has found problems with EPI's methods. I have already posted a link to one of the critiques. EPI (and Ezra) are not unbiased and neither is the group that did the analysis that contradicted EPI's findings.

    Vs the sources you have cited:
    http://www.aei.org/files/2011/06/08/...y-May-2011.pdf
    Public Schools Pay Teachers 50% Above Market, Heritage Analysis Finds
    Last edited by buck; 11-26-11 at 02:13 AM.

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    Re: New poll shows majority support Walker recall

    Quote Originally Posted by treedancer View Post
    I read the study and I didn’t come to the conclusion that they were responding any specific study. If I were responding to a "specific study " I don’t believe that I would start out asking a question such as [I]“Are California Public Employees Overpaid?”
    The CWED report, written by Keefe - who also worked on the EPI study.


    Fact=more education, more dough, whether its private, of public sector. Fact= 50% of California citizens have a college degree as apposed to Wisconsin’s 40.2%.
    Then it's a good thing the rebuttal was written to a study of CA. It didn't argue with educaiton, it argued thhat some items were not included in total compensation of the public worker. I thought you said you read it?
    Last edited by buck; 11-26-11 at 02:11 AM.

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    Re: New poll shows majority support Walker recall

    Quote Originally Posted by buck View Post
    Federal pay.......................
    Teachers are not federal employees.




    The Times did not compare state health-care plans and pensions to the private sector. Such benefits are a major part of total state employee compensation — about 30 percent, on average — but are difficult to put present-day dollar values on and even harder to compare across different employers and job categories.
    Right below this part you quoted without giving the source credit, "However, such analyses don't tell the whole story because the government and private-sector work forces are composed very differently. Washington state's payroll, for instance, includes relatively more high-earning occupations, such as educators and finance specialists, and relatively fewer low-earning occupations, such as wait staff and retail clerks."Local News | How state workers' pay really stacks up | Seattle Times Newspaper




    Further analysis has found problems with EPI's methods. I have already posted a link to one of the critiques. EPI (and Ezra) are not unbiased and neither is the group that did the analysis that contradicted EPI's findings.
    Problems too insignificant, or too lame, to bother citing here we must assume.



    Another non-related link about Federal pay and one from the most biased organization out there.
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