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Thread: New poll shows majority support Walker recall

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    Re: New poll shows majority support Walker recall

    Quote Originally Posted by Sig View Post
    You're not getting it.

    The government's habit (at the federal, state, and local levels) of routinely overpaying for goods and services it obtains from the private sector has NOTHING to do with regulations and EVERYTHING to do with pay-to-play politics. The cost of essentially bribing a party boss and certain elected officials to steer a sweetheart contract to Company X is passed on to the taxpayer. This is how the system works.

    Get it now?
    Yes, I understand. You dont seem to be getting that compared to the trillions of dollar deficit, it's peanuts. I am in favor of getting rid of pay to play, but it will not solve the budget issues. I am also in favor of getting rid of the ridiculous government regulations that greatly inflate the cost of goods and services that the government purchases from the private sector. You apparently don't believe this is an issue, but it is. Al Gore, someone that I rarely agree with, even believes it is an issue.

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    Re: New poll shows majority support Walker recall

    Quote Originally Posted by buck View Post
    Yes, I understand. You dont seem to be getting that compared to the trillions of dollar deficit, it's peanuts. I am in favor of getting rid of pay to play, but it will not solve the budget issues. I am also in favor of getting rid of the ridiculous government regulations that greatly inflate the cost of goods and services that the government purchases from the private sector. You apparently don't believe this is an issue, but it is. Al Gore, someone that I rarely agree with, even believes it is an issue.
    No, you do not understand. This is not peanuts. Pay-to-play lies at the very core of the matter. If the government maintains an unofficial policy of paying $5.00 per unit for a widget with a market rate of $3.00 per unit, it does not take a genius to figure out what such a policy will do to the budget and the deficit in the fullness of time.

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    Re: New poll shows majority support Walker recall

    Quote Originally Posted by Sig View Post
    No, you do not understand. This is not peanuts. Pay-to-play lies at the very core of the matter. If the government maintains an unofficial policy of paying $5.00 per unit for a widget with a market rate of $3.00 per unit, it does not take a genius to figure out what such a policy will do to the budget and the deficit in the fullness of time.
    First, you would have to look to see what additional regulations the government has in place that might be affecting the price of the object. Then you have to look at the difference between the worth and the overpayment. The Government is (apparently) going to have to purchase the item anyway. So a bulk of the budget on that item is legitiamte. There is only a small percentage (the amount of overpayment) that is not. So, as a percentage, the overpayment is insignifcant to the budget as a whole. I agree. We should get rid of the waste you are describing. However, it's not going to balance budgets.

    Additionally, just because we get rid of the waste you are describing, does not mean that it's not also a good idea to get rid of the, IMO, over compensation in the public sector. You can do both and doing both is a great idea.

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    Re: New poll shows majority support Walker recall

    Quote Originally Posted by buck View Post
    First, you would have to look to see what additional regulations the government has in place that might be affecting the price of the object. Then you have to look at the difference between the worth and the overpayment. The Government is (apparently) going to have to purchase the item anyway. So a bulk of the budget on that item is legitiamte. There is only a small percentage (the amount of overpayment) that is not. So, as a percentage, the overpayment is insignifcant to the budget as a whole. I agree. We should get rid of the waste you are describing. However, it's not going to balance budgets.

    Additionally, just because we get rid of the waste you are describing, does not mean that it's not also a good idea to get rid of the, IMO, over compensation in the public sector. You can do both and doing both is a great idea.
    Regulation has nothing to do with the problem of government overpaying for goods and services it purchases from the private sector. Don't you get it? This is engrained corruption, plain and simple!

    JEESH!!!

    In the example given, if you compound that extra $2.00 a billion times over and across contracts for all the various widgets the government purchases, it amounts to a whole lot more than a "small percentage."

    The same bunch of upper-class nabobs who get filthy rich off these sweetheart contracts are using their considerable control over mass media to scapegoat the middle class public employee, now that said nabobs have finally emptied the trough and everyone is asking "Where has all our tax revenue gone?"

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    Re: New poll shows majority support Walker recall

    Quote Originally Posted by Sig View Post
    Regulation has nothing to do with the problem of government overpaying for goods and services it purchases from the private sector. Don't you get it? This is engrained corruption, plain and simple!

    JEESH!!!
    Well, Al Gore and I disagree. Regulation absolutely results in the government paying more then what an everyday consumer would. There are many real life examples. I gave 2. Ashtrays at the federal level and housing demolition at the local level.

    I am assuming that since you haven't posted, or even hinted at, a study (non partisan preferred) showing that "all our tax revenue" has gone to private companies overcharging the government means you don't have one. If you do, post it. But I find it a rather silly supposition on your part. Yes, there is government waste as you describe. Yes, as real dollars it could be signifcanct. However, the total overpaymets are a small percentage of the overall budget.
    Last edited by buck; 11-25-11 at 01:06 PM.

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    Re: New poll shows majority support Walker recall

    Quote Originally Posted by buck View Post
    As an example, here is Heritage's critique of the studies from left leaning groups. They are basically stating that those prior studies didn't properly calculate retiree health benefits (since public workers tend to retire earlier can be signifcant), some disagreement on how pension should be counted (defined-benefit vs defined-contribution) and job security that publi workers enjoy (which is a benefit).

    As someone that already has his mind made up, I hardly expect you to agree with this report. However, I only provide it to show you that it's not quite as black and white as you want to believe. There are studies indicating that public workers are over compensated. Just as there are yet other studies indicating that when public workers leave their jobs and enter private sector they take a cut to compensation and when private sector workers go to the public sector they recieve more compensation.

    Are California Public Employees Overpaid?

    You gotta be kiddin with this quote” As someone that already has his mind made up “followed by this quote “I hardly expect you to agree with this report “Implying that you’ve taken the high ground in this debate.Whatta hoot.


    The cherry on the cake is your link to a heritage foundation article on “California Public Employees” who can pay police officer John Pike, $106,k a year to do a workmanlike job of pepperspraying peaceful demonstrators setting on a sidewalk.


    California has a history of paying the highest wages in the country for its public employees. I notice that they didn’t take on the difference in education between public and private sector. Kinda looks to me that they just choose one of the highest paid public sector states in the union and decided to do a study on it.


    Considering that 50% of California citizens have a college degree as apposed to Wisconsin’s 40.2%. Makes me wonder about the study, then I look where it came from and snicker.
    The haggardness of poverty is everywhere seen contrasted with the sleekness of wealth, the exhorted labor of some compensating for the idleness of others, wretched hovels by the side of stately colonnades, the rags of indigence blended with the ensigns of opulence; in a word, the most useless profusion in the midst of the most urgent wants.Jean-Baptiste Say

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    Re: New poll shows majority support Walker recall

    Quote Originally Posted by treedancer View Post
    You gotta be kiddin with this quote” As someone that already has his mind made up “followed by this quote “I hardly expect you to agree with this report “Implying that you’ve taken the high ground in this debate.Whatta hoot.
    Well, I understand there is all kinds of information out there on the subject. A lot of it conflicting. You have your mind made up without, apparently, having even seen half of the info. I have my mind made up after reviewing pretty much all of it. Am I wrong? Possible. Just as possible that you are wrong. I am not trying to convince you. It won't be possible. I am simply trying to show you that there is a lot of data and things aren't quite as easy as you think. In both of our cases, we are making our opinion based on the report we believe to be most accurate. BTW, you rather confirmed my statement with your last comment - you know the one where you say "then I look where it came from and snicker".

    The cherry on the cake is your link to a heritage foundation article on “California Public Employees” who can pay police officer John Pike, $106,k a year to do a workmanlike job of pepperspraying peaceful demonstrators setting on a sidewalk.
    I understand you may not like Heritage. It is a right wing group, afterall. However, EPI, the group whose study you seem to like, is a left wing group. I get why you want to just automatically throw away data from the right wing group and just keep the data from the left wing group. If I could get away with it, I would want to do the same... Well, the opposite.

    California has a history of paying the highest wages in the country for its public employees. I notice that they didn’t take on the difference in education between public and private sector. Kinda looks to me that they just choose one of the highest paid public sector states in the union and decided to do a study on it.
    That was just a response to the specific study. They chose CA, because they have more data available, and the report they were responding to included a lot of info on CA. They, IMO and as evidenced by the Heritage report, made some errors in their calculations and assumptions. If that doesn't make you think that it's just possible they did it in other states, I don't know what to tell you.

    There are studies that look at other states and even other studies that look at all states and find similar outcomes - that state workers across the country are over compensated when compared to private workers. I simply linked to one of many.
    Last edited by buck; 11-25-11 at 06:32 PM.

  8. #218
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    Re: New poll shows majority support Walker recall

    Quote Originally Posted by buck View Post
    That doesn't mean that texas, for example, didn't save a crap load of money by ending collective bargaining. Politicans just couldn't help increasing spending in other areas, eating up whatever savings created plus a hella lot more. Just because WI saves a crap load of money due to the passage of Act10, doesn't mean that some future politican won't decide to increase spending on other areas of the government.

    Saving money on ending fraud or wasteful spending, doesn't mean that budgets will be automatically balanced for ever and ever. Some politican will come into office, increase spending and eat up more then was saved. That isn't evidence that fraud and wasteful spending shouldn't be eliminated, though.
    I'm all for cutting fraud and wasteful spending. I am not however for cutting teacher's meager compensation to try to make up for tax cuts to the wealthy for the last 30 years, the Bush Recession, and the rigged prices for widgets.
    Last edited by Catawba; 11-25-11 at 09:18 PM.
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    Re: New poll shows majority support Walker recall

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    I'm all for cutting fraud and wasteful spending. I am not however for cutting teacher's meager compensation to try to make up for tax cuts to the wealthy for the last 30 years, the Bush Recession, and the rigged prices for widgets.
    Great. Another one that hasn't even seen all the data on public vs. private sector compensation but is most willing to just take a biased, left wing group's study as gospel.
    Last edited by buck; 11-25-11 at 09:42 PM.

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    Re: New poll shows majority support Walker recall

    Quote Originally Posted by buck View Post
    Great. Another one that hasn't even seen all the data on public vs. private sector compensation but is most willing to just take a biased, left wing group's study as gospel.
    You have cited no studies, I am the one that has actually cited several unbiased studies on this forum that show teacher's total compensation, when considering education levels, age, gender, and race, private sector total compensation is higher then for public teachers.

    I have also cited evidence that the biggest financial burden states face is due to low revenues created by the recession and tax cuts for the wealthy.

    All you have provided is your opinion.
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

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