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Thread: New poll shows majority support Walker recall

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    Re: New poll shows majority support Walker recall

    Quote Originally Posted by buck View Post
    Yes, I am not in favor of that type of waste either. However, I think that doesn't occur as often as it used to. Or at least i've been led to believe that. Regardless, I seem to recall about 15-20 years ago, David Letterman had someone on his show and while I can't really remember the specifics, I know it had something to do with some largely expensive ashtray (I think) that the government bought. The government had all kinds of special requirements on the ash tray, which was the real reason it was so expensive.

    However, while I am against such waste, as a percentage of the budget and what the government will really save total is peanuts compared to other areas of government spending. So, that waste should be eliminated, but that doesn't mean that other spending isn't going to have to be reduced.
    Peanuts?...

    The government pays more for everything it purchases from the private sector when it should be getting, at least, fair market value. This does not amount to peanuts by any stretch of the imagination. It is the very cause of state bankruptcy.

    BTW: If you are satisfied with the excuse that "government specifications" are the reason for marking up the cost of an ashtray, then you have my sympathies.

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    Re: New poll shows majority support Walker recall

    Quote Originally Posted by Sig View Post
    Peanuts?...

    The government pays more for everything it purchases from the private sector when it should be getting, at least, fair market value. This does not amount to peanuts by any stretch of the imagination. It is the very cause of state bankruptcy.

    BTW: If you are satisfied with the excuse that "government specifications" are the reason for marking up the cost of an ashtray, then you have my sympathies.
    I am sure it is a lot of money. I know the government is wasteful. However, it's peanuts when compared to the rest of the budget. I agree, we should stop the wasteful spending. But that won't solve the issue - since it is a small percentage of the total budget.

    I found an article about the Letterman segment. Apparently it was Al Gore (and I don't remeber him at all in the segment) who was talking about the ash tray and indicated it was government requirements that drove up the price.

    GORE, LETTERMAN TRADE QUIPS, BREAK ASHTRAYS | Deseret News

    Gore brought two ashtrays and read the complex federal regulations on how government-purchased ashtrays must break when dropped.

    "This is a designer ashtray because the taxpayers have paid lots of people to specify everything about this, including the testing procedure," Gore said.
    Also from that article is the amount that Gore hoped to save from this initiative:
    Gore repeated his themes in the program to cut more than $100 billion waste, saying that the government can, like Detroit's auto-makers, transform itself and do a better job.
    $100 bil is a lot of money, but compared to the budget issues in this country, not much.
    Last edited by buck; 11-24-11 at 12:46 PM.

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    Re: New poll shows majority support Walker recall

    Quote Originally Posted by Sig View Post
    BTW: If you are satisfied with the excuse that "government specifications" are the reason for marking up the cost of an ashtray, then you have my sympathies.
    After thinking about this a bit more... Yes, the government does create all kinds of additional regulations that result in them paying a lot more then they should or would if not for the requirements. This happend in WI just a few months ago. The state was getting ready to demolish some housing. Because of the requirements they were requiring with disposal, the cost to accomplish the task was extraordinarily high.

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    Re: New poll shows majority support Walker recall

    Quote Originally Posted by buck View Post
    No, there are studies on the other side. You just aren't interested in them. There are also studies refuting the studies you posted. Again, you aren't interested. You are obviously only looking for evidence that supports your position. It's the only thing that makes sense, since when the most recent study came out it was in all the news and came to the conclusion that PS unions were over paid compared to the private sector counterparts even accounting for education. It's hardly opinion. It's simply things you want to ignore.

    However, it is opinion on which study, after reviewing them all, seems the most likely. But at least I reviewed them all, not just the ones that agree with my position.

    Lastly, yes. It is simply my opinion that raising taxes in WI, where they are already ranked 4th in tax burden, would not be a good idea.
    As previously noted:

    "Most assuredly, Wisconsin isn't "bankrupt" because public-sector unions here have the right to collective bargaining. There are 13 states with no collective bargaining rights for public workers; eight of them have larger budget shortfalls than does Wisconsin. In Texas, for example, a non-collective bargaining state whose low-tax, "open for business" economic policies are vaunted by the right, the state's deficit as a percentage of the total budget is over twice that of Wisconsin's."
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    Re: New poll shows majority support Walker recall

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    As previously noted:

    "Most assuredly, Wisconsin isn't "bankrupt" because public-sector unions here have the right to collective bargaining. There are 13 states with no collective bargaining rights for public workers; eight of them have larger budget shortfalls than does Wisconsin. In Texas, for example, a non-collective bargaining state whose low-tax, "open for business" economic policies are vaunted by the right, the state's deficit as a percentage of the total budget is over twice that of Wisconsin's."
    That doesn't mean that texas, for example, didn't save a crap load of money by ending collective bargaining. Politicans just couldn't help increasing spending in other areas, eating up whatever savings created plus a hella lot more. Just because WI saves a crap load of money due to the passage of Act10, doesn't mean that some future politican won't decide to increase spending on other areas of the government.

    Saving money on ending fraud or wasteful spending, doesn't mean that budgets will be automatically balanced for ever and ever. Some politican will come into office, increase spending and eat up more then was saved. That isn't evidence that fraud and wasteful spending shouldn't be eliminated, though.
    Last edited by buck; 11-24-11 at 11:27 PM.

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    Re: New poll shows majority support Walker recall

    Quote Originally Posted by buck View Post
    No, there are studies on the other side. You just aren't interested in them. There are also studies refuting the studies you posted. Again, you aren't interested. You are obviously only looking for evidence that supports your position. It's the only thing that makes sense, since when the most recent study came out it was in all the news and came to the conclusion that PS unions were over paid compared to the private sector counterparts even accounting for education. It's hardly opinion. It's simply things you want to ignore.

    However, it is opinion on which study, after reviewing them all, seems the most likely. But at least I reviewed them all, not just the ones that agree with my position.

    Lastly, yes. It is simply my opinion that raising taxes in WI, where they are already ranked 4th in tax burden, would not be a good idea.

    From what I have read wages of state and local employees are actually lower than those for private sector when you factor in workers with comparable earnings determinants (e.g., education). What I have read is the state employees typically earn 11 percent less.
    The haggardness of poverty is everywhere seen contrasted with the sleekness of wealth, the exhorted labor of some compensating for the idleness of others, wretched hovels by the side of stately colonnades, the rags of indigence blended with the ensigns of opulence; in a word, the most useless profusion in the midst of the most urgent wants.Jean-Baptiste Say

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    Re: New poll shows majority support Walker recall

    Quote Originally Posted by MaggieD View Post
    Really?
    Yeah, really.

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    Re: New poll shows majority support Walker recall

    Quote Originally Posted by treedancer View Post
    From what I have read wages of state and local employees are actually lower than those for private sector when you factor in workers with comparable earnings determinants (e.g., education). What I have read is the state employees typically earn 11 percent less.
    That would be the problem. The numbers are all over the place. You can find studies that show that public sector employees are undercompensated from between 4%-26%. You can also find studies showing the opposite. The ones from left leaning groups (i.e. EPI) tend to find one way. The ones from right leaning groups tend to find the other way. You are more then welcome to have an opinion on which study you feel is more accurate. However, when I view public salaries and pensions in my state - and I know the pension my uncle, who retired quite young, recieved from the city - I tend to believe the ones showing that public employees are over compensated.

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    Re: New poll shows majority support Walker recall

    Quote Originally Posted by treedancer View Post
    From what I have read wages of state and local employees are actually lower than those for private sector when you factor in workers with comparable earnings determinants (e.g., education). What I have read is the state employees typically earn 11 percent less.
    As an example, here is Heritage's critique of the studies from left leaning groups. They are basically stating that those prior studies didn't properly calculate retiree health benefits (since public workers tend to retire earlier can be signifcant), some disagreement on how pension should be counted (defined-benefit vs defined-contribution) and job security that publi workers enjoy (which is a benefit).

    As someone that already has his mind made up, I hardly expect you to agree with this report. However, I only provide it to show you that it's not quite as black and white as you want to believe. There are studies indicating that public workers are over compensated. Just as there are yet other studies indicating that when public workers leave their jobs and enter private sector they take a cut to compensation and when private sector workers go to the public sector they recieve more compensation.

    Are California Public Employees Overpaid?
    Last edited by buck; 11-25-11 at 11:27 AM.

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    Re: New poll shows majority support Walker recall

    Quote Originally Posted by buck View Post
    After thinking about this a bit more... Yes, the government does create all kinds of additional regulations that result in them paying a lot more then they should or would if not for the requirements. This happend in WI just a few months ago. The state was getting ready to demolish some housing. Because of the requirements they were requiring with disposal, the cost to accomplish the task was extraordinarily high.
    You're not getting it.

    The government's habit (at the federal, state, and local levels) of routinely overpaying for goods and services it obtains from the private sector has NOTHING to do with regulations and EVERYTHING to do with pay-to-play politics. The cost of essentially bribing a party boss and certain elected officials to steer a sweetheart contract to Company X is passed on to the taxpayer. This is how the system works.

    Get it now?

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