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Thread: New poll shows majority support Walker recall

  1. #111
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    Re: New poll shows majority support Walker recall

    Quote Originally Posted by buck View Post
    As I am sure you are aware, there can be a lot of reasons a state is in bad shape beyond just collective barganing. However, the state that has made the change most recently, Indiana, is doing just great with their budget.

    But, if you would like to post a link showing which states do not have PS union collective barganing and what their deficits look like compared to state's that do, i'm more then happy to take a look.
    The most notable states with bad budget problems and little or no collective bargaining are North Carolina and Texas. There's a good graph on this page showing the lack of correlation between collective bargaining and budget deficits: The Relationship between Union Membership and State Budget Deficits ? The Monkey Cage

    Admittedly the graph uses total union membership -- not just state and local -- so it's not that meaningful.

    More on point: http://craigcrawford.com/2011/02/23/...ont-end-defic/

    In the case of Wisconsin, Walker signed tax cuts into law that take effect over the next three years. Those tax cuts will cost the state almost exactly the amount of this year's projected deficit.

    http://voices.washingtonpost.com/ezr..._for_wisc.html
    Last edited by AdamT; 11-20-11 at 03:45 PM.

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    Re: New poll shows majority support Walker recall

    Quote Originally Posted by AdamT View Post
    The most notable states with bad budget problems and little or no collective bargaining are North Carolina and Texas. There's a good graph on this page showing the lack of correlation between collective bargaining and budget deficits: The Relationship between Union Membership and State Budget Deficits ? The Monkey Cage
    Common sense would seem to tell me that the likely problem is that some of the states that don't allow collective bargaining in their states saved a lot of money on that decision. However, politicans being what they are (from both parties) they contnued spending far more then they were actually saving, which caused them to be in deficit. I don't think anyone has claimed that a state that makes the decision to save money by elimintating CB for PS unions will never go into deficit. The politicans in those states still have to control spending on other items - otherwise whatever savings they had will be gone.

    In the case of Wisconsin, Walker signed tax cuts into law that take effect over the next three years. Those tax cuts will cost the state almost exactly the amount of this year's projected deficit.
    The couple of hundred million in tax cuts were not effect during the fiscal period Ezra is discussing. The couple of hundred in tax breaks were not responsible for the 3.x billion dollar deficit that existed in WI and was estimated by the prior democrat governor prior to the tax cuts even being signed into law. Here is an article from Politifact on the topic.

    There is fierce debate over the approach Walker took to address the short-term budget deficit. But there should be no debate on whether or not there is a shortfall. While not historically large, the shortfall in the current budget needed to be addressed in some fashion. Walker’s tax cuts will boost the size of the projected deficit in the next budget, but they’re not part of this problem and did not create it.
    PolitiFact Wisconsin | Rachel Maddow says Wisconsin is on track to have a budget surplus this year

    EDIT:Ah. Yes, I remember now. After politifact ran the story, Ezra finally came out and begrudingly admitted he was wrong. I remember reading that back when he first wrote it, but forgot. This rather proves what the problem is. People that don't really understand the issue, keep making all kinds of demonstrably false claims. The people on their side run with the false info and repeat until it becomes "fact" in the mind of their sycophants even after the originator has backed away from the claim.

    Here is the update Ezra provided at the very bottom of the link you provided.
    Update: I've been persuaded that the surplus-to-deficit picture is more complicated that I initially understood. The budget report is working with two time periods simultaneously: 2010-2011, and then 2011-13. The $130 million deficit now projected for 2011 isn't the fault of the tax breaks passed during Walker's special session, though his special session created about $120 million in deficit spending between 2011 and 2013 -- and perhaps more than that, if his policies are extended. That is to say, the deficit spending he created in his special session is about equal to the deficit Wisconsin faces this year, but it's not technically correct to say that Walker created 2011's deficit. Rather, he added $120 million to the 2011-2013 deficits, and perhaps more in the years after that.
    Last edited by buck; 11-20-11 at 05:16 PM.

  3. #113
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    Re: New poll shows majority support Walker recall

    The survey was of residents, not registered voters, so we'll see how this plays out.

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    Re: New poll shows majority support Walker recall

    Quote Originally Posted by buck View Post
    Here is the update Ezra provided at the very bottom of the link you provided.
    Yeah, I actually read it through before I posted it.

    That's why I pointed out that Walker's tax cuts over the next three years equal roughly the entire deficit for this year. Obviously his only choice isn't to ratf*ck the unions. He could have solved a good deal of the problem simply by not cutting revenue when he knew he was facing a revenue shortfall. But you know how irresponsible those uinions are....

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    Re: New poll shows majority support Walker recall

    Quote Originally Posted by danarhea View Post
    It's not unions that bankrupted the state. It was Governor Walker, who cut the revenue Wisconsin was bringing in to the bone. That might have made the Koch brothers happy, but it created the financial crisis. The public sector unions, by the way, agreed to every single concession that was asked of it, yet Walker still busted the unions.
    Also, quit watching RACHEL MADDOW:

    There is, indeed, a projected deficit that required attention, and Walker and GOP lawmakers did not create it. [...]

    The confusion, it appears, stems from a section in [Director of the nonpartisan Legislative Fiscal Bureau Robert] Lang’s memo that -- read on its own -- does project a $121 million surplus in the state’s general fund as of June 30, 2011.

    But the remainder of the routine memo -- consider it the fine print -- outlines $258 million in unpaid bills or expected shortfalls in programs such as Medicaid services for the needy ($174 million alone), the public defender’s office and corrections. Additionally, the state owes Minnesota $58.7 million under a discontinued tax reciprocity deal.

    The result, by our math and Lang’s, is the $137 million shortfall.

    It would be closer to the $340 million figure if the figure included the $200 million owed to the state’s patient compensation fund, a debt courts have declared resulted from an illegal raid on the fund under former Gov. Jim Doyle.

    A court ruling is pending in that matter, so the money might not have to be transferred until next budget year.

    So, contrary to what Maddow and many in the media including on MSNBC have been claiming, Wisconsin does indeed have a budget deficit.

    And what about that tax cut Maddow and others in the press have been focusing so much attention on? Well, they've been misrepresenting that as well:

    The tax cuts will cost the state a projected $140 million in tax revenue -- but not until the next two-year budget, from July 2011 to June 2013. The cuts are not even in effect yet, so they cannot be part of the current problem.

    Amazing. Politifact concluded:

    There is fierce debate over the approach Walker took to address the short-term budget deficit. But there should be no debate on whether or not there is a shortfall. While not historically large, the shortfall in the current budget needed to be addressed in some fashion. Walker’s tax cuts will boost the size of the projected deficit in the next budget, but they’re not part of this problem and did not create it.

    We rate Maddow’s take False.



    Read more: Rachel Maddow Exposed for Lying About Wisconsin Having Budget Surplus | NewsBusters.org
    LIES. Wisconsin was in the hole WHEN HE WAS ELECTED. The Unions, did not, as you keep LYING, agree to every single concession:
    Although union leaders and Wisconsin Democratic Senators are offering to accept the wage and benefit concessions Gov. Scott Walker is demanding, Republican Senate Majority Leader Scott Fitzgerald (R-Juneau) said today a bill taking away collective bargaining rights from public employees is not negotiable.
    Democrats and union leaders said they're willing to agree to the parts of Walker's budget repair bill that would double their health insurance contributions and require them to contribute 5.8 percent of their salary to their pensions.
    However, the union leaders want to keep their collective bargaining rights.
    "I have been informed that all state and local public employees – including teachers - have agreed to the financial aspects of Governor
    WISCONSIN: Governor rejects union offer to take his wage & benefit cuts in order to save collective bargaining rights via reddit.com

    Had they taken this Union "agreement", all that would have happened is the Unions would have "collectively bargained" back the cuts emplaced. You have been dishonest in this debate from the word GO.
    Quote Originally Posted by danarhea View Post


    In addition, to show how unethical and smarmy your little attacks on me are (because I happen to support unions), 40% of union members voted Republican in 2008, but to you they are just dirty liberal hippies. You would rather just put people into boxes and label them, rather than try to figure out that things are a lot more complicated than cubbyholes and labels. To you, unions = dirty hippes, even though 40% of union members voted Republican. And your tactic of attacking the messenger, rather than replying in an intelligent manner to a post, explaining why you disagree, is not worthy of being called debate in the first place. It is just a personal attack, based on your distorted view of people, and really hearkens back to a time, during the Red Scare, when Joe McCarthy accused people of being Communists, even when they weren't. It's not debate, Nancy. It's disgusting.
    Supporting Unions is not the same as supporting PUBLIC SECTOR Unions. I hold no bones on Unions, 90% of the time, they are bad for the employees, and bad for the businesses. But when it come to PUBLIC SECTOR, they are a scourge that muse be destroyed.

    You, are the one dishonest, now you're playing victim, and woes me. The debate, is all but over. Facts are not on your side, hyperbole, rhetoric and emotion, that's all you've got left in your tank.
    Last edited by Renae; 11-21-11 at 12:01 AM.
    Climate, changes. It takes a particularly uneducated population to buy into the idea that it's their fault climate is changing and further political solutions can fix it.



  6. #116
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    Re: New poll shows majority support Walker recall

    I read earlier they have over 25% of the petitions they need and its only been 4 days and they have till mid january to get the rest...514,000 petitions will be relatively easy to get...they're probably almost double that in public workers and their families...alone

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    Re: New poll shows majority support Walker recall

    Quote Originally Posted by lpast View Post
    I read earlier they have over 25% of the petitions they need and its only been 4 days and they have till mid january to get the rest...514,000 petitions will be relatively easy to get...they're probably almost double that in public workers and their families...alone


    They had better get twice as many as they need because the party of Koch will be flooding the state with money in an effort to defeat the will of the people of the badger.
    The haggardness of poverty is everywhere seen contrasted with the sleekness of wealth, the exhorted labor of some compensating for the idleness of others, wretched hovels by the side of stately colonnades, the rags of indigence blended with the ensigns of opulence; in a word, the most useless profusion in the midst of the most urgent wants.Jean-Baptiste Say

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    Re: New poll shows majority support Walker recall

    Quote Originally Posted by treedancer View Post
    They had better get twice as many as they need because the party of Koch will be flooding the state with money in an effort to defeat the will of the people of the badger.
    Like the Unions won't be flooding the state with out of state funds to try and regain political power. Spare us the rhetoric.
    Climate, changes. It takes a particularly uneducated population to buy into the idea that it's their fault climate is changing and further political solutions can fix it.



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    Re: New poll shows majority support Walker recall

    Quote Originally Posted by MrVicchio View Post
    Like the Unions won't be flooding the state with out of state funds to try and regain political power. Spare us the rhetoric.

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    Re: New poll shows majority support Walker recall

    Quote Originally Posted by AdamT View Post

    Look at them dead looking eyes on walker...i haven't seen eyes like that since nixon.
    The haggardness of poverty is everywhere seen contrasted with the sleekness of wealth, the exhorted labor of some compensating for the idleness of others, wretched hovels by the side of stately colonnades, the rags of indigence blended with the ensigns of opulence; in a word, the most useless profusion in the midst of the most urgent wants.Jean-Baptiste Say

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