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Thread: Police clear out Oakland protest camp

  1. #181
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    Re: Police clear out Oakland protest camp

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    I once read an article that stated that there are so many active laws in the US today that there isn't a single adult person in the US that hasn't broken the law.
    While that may be true, we're really discussing something that is reasonable here.
    The law says you can't camp in city parks, that makes sense as that is not there intended purpose.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    Actually when it comes to public parks and such, yes, first come first served is the basis. You cannot enter any park and tell a person having a picnic that they have to leave. You have to find somewhere else to go.
    Yes but a picnic /= camping for a couple of months.
    A picnic is a temporary use, camping for time on end, is an indefinite use.
    The latter is unreasonable.
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
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    Re: Police clear out Oakland protest camp

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    Why should I help them clean up their mess if I don't want them there to begin with? I am not going to allow anyone to walk all over me and expect me to clean up after them and continually clean up after them for being on my property. That is beyond being reasonable, that is foolish.
    I guess I don't look at it that way. I had to do some thinking about when would it be possible for any group to be on my yard, and in doing so I firgure there would be a reason, likely one I would possibily accept, so I would see making a compromise in my best interest. Remember, these things are rarely just without reason.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

  3. #183
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    Re: Police clear out Oakland protest camp

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    I guess I don't look at it that way. I had to do some thinking about when would it be possible for any group to be on my yard, and in doing so I firgure there would be a reason, likely one I would possibily accept, so I would see making a compromise in my best interest. Remember, these things are rarely just without reason.
    Not everyone is Boo Radley.
    Other people have legitimate gripes about OWS camping in a public park.
    Just because you aren't bothered by doesn't mean they shouldn't leave.

    Again a compromise was made, they could protest, they just couldn't camp.
    Not a huge deal here.
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
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  4. #184
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    Re: Police clear out Oakland protest camp

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    I guess I don't look at it that way. I had to do some thinking about when would it be possible for any group to be on my yard, and in doing so I firgure there would be a reason, likely one I would possibily accept, so I would see making a compromise in my best interest. Remember, these things are rarely just without reason.
    I might have sympathy for them, depending on their reasons, just as I do have some sympathy for those who are occupying these cities who honestly have nowhere else to go, but it would not be enough for me to just allow them to reside on my property without cleaning up after themselves and doing something actually productive while they are there.

    My mother camped out in WA state for over 2 months til she could earn enough money working to get a deposit to rent a house. But she was being productive during that time. She was also in a place that allowed her to camp there.

    The OWS occupiers' reason for camping where they are has very little to do with what they are purportedly protesting, which is corporate greed and its connection to American governments (which I honestly understand). Protesting these things does not require in any way creating tent cities within public parks, especially parks that are closed at night. And a rational person knows that corporate greed and corruption cannot be dealt with in any time that reasonable to allow a large group of people to camp in city parks for without causing major issues. It just isn't going to happen.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

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    Re: Police clear out Oakland protest camp

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    I might have sympathy for them, depending on their reasons, just as I do have some sympathy for those who are occupying these cities who honestly have nowhere else to go, but it would not be enough for me to just allow them to reside on my property without cleaning up after themselves and doing something actually productive while they are there.

    My mother camped out in WA state for over 2 months til she could earn enough money working to get a deposit to rent a house. But she was being productive during that time. She was also in a place that allowed her to camp there.

    The OWS occupiers' reason for camping where they are has very little to do with what they are purportedly protesting, which is corporate greed and its connection to American governments (which I honestly understand). Protesting these things does not require in any way creating tent cities within public parks, especially parks that are closed at night. And a rational person knows that corporate greed and corruption cannot be dealt with in any time that reasonable to allow a large group of people to camp in city parks for without causing major issues. It just isn't going to happen.
    Which is why I said I'm help them clean up, and provide options for them to care for themselves. They'd take that much better than just trying to throw them out.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

  6. #186
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    Re: Police clear out Oakland protest camp

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    I guess I don't look at it that way. I had to do some thinking about when would it be possible for any group to be on my yard, and in doing so I firgure there would be a reason, likely one I would possibily accept, so I would see making a compromise in my best interest. Remember, these things are rarely just without reason.
    Follow with me here: Zuccotti Park is only 3,300 square feet; you own an acre; let's change the 500 people on your property to 2,600 people. (Before you gasp, I found one site that mentioned 200 people -- I think that's low because they talked about hundreds and thousands of people...an acre is 43,560 s.f. divided by 3,300 s.f. = 13.2. Now, 13.2 x 200 people = 2,640.) Then there's their sleeping bags, their sleeping tents, their generators, their food tents and all the paraphenalia people need to camp out for months at a time. Oh, and they're using the ground as a toilet. Oh, and when guests try to come to your home, they block their way and intimidate them because they want your town to acquiesce to their demands. Your attorney tells you that you may be responsible for their injuries on your property. And you've got a few hundred thousand dollars in the bank you'd rather not spend on lawsuits. That vegetable garden you've got around back? They trampled that. They've scared your livestock. There's been a few sexual attacks, a shooting, stealing and more. Some of the rowdies are just troublemakers. They break all the windows in your home. Scare your wife and kids. You ask them, "What do I have to do to get you to leave?" Everyone answers that question differently. And many are asking for things you know damn well sure the town is never going to agree to no matter how long they stay. They've been there two months -- and you've been patient for two months. Now what?

    Okay, Boo. That's the reality of Zuccotti Park. If you tell me that, "I'm a patient man, I'd find a way to compromise," you're just telling a fib.

    Edit: And you'll never be mayor.
    Last edited by MaggieD; 11-16-11 at 05:31 PM.
    The devil whispered in my ear, "You cannot withstand the storm." I whispered back, "I am ​the storm."

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    Re: Police clear out Oakland protest camp

    Quote Originally Posted by MaggieD View Post
    Follow with me here: Zuccotti Park is only 3,300 square feet; you own an acre; let's change the 500 people on your property to 2,600 people. (Before you gasp, I found one site that mentioned 200 people -- I think that's low because they talked about hundreds and thousands of people...an acre is 43,560 s.f. divided by 3,300 s.f. = 13.2. Now, 13.2 x 200 people = 2,640.) Then there's their sleeping bags, their sleeping tents, their generators, their food tents and all the paraphenalia people need to camp out for months at a time. Oh, and they're using the ground as a toilet. Oh, and when guests try to come to your home, they block their way and intimidate them because they want your town to acquiesce to their demands. Your attorney tells you that you may be responsible for their injuries on your property. And you've got a few hundred thousand dollars in the bank you'd rather not spend on lawsuits. That vegetable garden you've got around back? They trampled that. They've scared your livestock. There's been a few sexual attacks, a shooting, stealing and more. Some of the rowdies are just troublemakers. They break all the windows in your home. Scare your wife and kids. You ask them, "What do I have to do to get you to leave?" Everyone answers that question differently. And many are asking for things you know damn well sure the town is never going to agree to no matter how long they stay. They've been there two months -- and you've been patient for two months. Now what?

    Okay, Boo. That's the reality of Zuccotti Park. If you tell me that, "I'm a patient man, I'd find a way to compromise," you're just telling a fib.

    Edit: And you'll never be mayor.
    The city has more resources than I do, but yes, I'd find a way to compromise. I'd work out having some toliets available. And they would be quite uncomfortable on my yard. As I'm cose to the river, we have some huge rats to contend with. I wish them luck.

    But the point is, what would likely be on my yard would be less than the park. And I think I could handle what I would see, and that the city could handle what they see. The point is, do you try to handle it, or do you act in ways that esculate it. I bet my yard and home would be less damaged my way than yours.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Police clear out Oakland protest camp

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    The city has more resources than I do, but yes, I'd find a way to compromise. I'd work out having some toliets available. And they would be quite uncomfortable on my yard. As I'm cose to the river, we have some huge rats to contend with. I wish them luck.

    But the point is, what would likely be on my yard would be less than the park. And I think I could handle what I would see, and that the city could handle what they see. The point is, do you try to handle it, or do you act in ways that esculate it. I bet my yard and home would be less damaged my way than yours.
    OK, Boo. I give up. You win.
    The devil whispered in my ear, "You cannot withstand the storm." I whispered back, "I am ​the storm."

  9. #189
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    Re: Police clear out Oakland protest camp

    Quote Originally Posted by MaggieD View Post
    OK, Boo. I give up. You win.
    It's not about winning. I'm just trying to say that it is often counter productive to escualte the violence. It doesn't matter what I would or wouldn't do. The escualting to force often ends up costing everyone more in the end. And I think that is what happened. SO perhaps we should save the use of force for when it is really needed. I don't think this is really all that controvesial.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Police clear out Oakland protest camp

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    It's not about winning. I'm just trying to say that it is often counter productive to escualte the violence. It doesn't matter what I would or wouldn't do. The escualting to force often ends up costing everyone more in the end. And I think that is what happened. SO perhaps we should save the use of force for when it is really needed. I don't think this is really all that controvesial.
    So, if folks are willing to go that far we should let them?

    Is that what you are saying?
    "I condemn the ideology of White Supremacy and Nazism. They are thugs, criminals, and repugnant, and are against what I believe to be "The American Way" "
    Thus my obligatory condemnation of White supremacy will now be in every post, lest I be accused of supporting it because I didn't mention it specifically every time I post.

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