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'Waterboarding is torture,' says Obama

MrVicchio said:
It should be an option, used rarely, and only on people who have information vital to saving lives and are... uncooperative.
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Thank you for your honesty on this matter. I have mixed feelings on the use of torture. Firstly, I do have concerns on the impact, psychologically, the procedure would have on the one administering the torture. Next, it's reliability is not proven, though admittedly, even the threat of torture can be a great information gathering tool... though only for specific types of people. I'm not sure how efficient it is, consistently, with those who are willing to die, anyway. I also question whether it is used to gather information or as retribution. Any kind of interrogation that is emotionally laden will be less than effective. This is a complex issue and it really don't see it as being black/white.
 
StillBallin75 said:
I think it should be on the table. In fact, I think all forms of torture should be on the table, the same way military action should be an option when all other diplomatic options are exhausted. But we should also recognize that they should be the last line of defense, and are in general ineffective. If, as an interrogator, you feel like you have to resort to torturing someone, then chances are that you didn't do your homework up until that point and screwed up elsewhere along the line.

In general, I believe that violence should be the option of last resort, but it should be an option. Doesn't make torturing a smart thing to do, though.
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We might do better if we concentrated our medical and psychological resources on figuring out a better way...psychological warfare...bribery...telling their fellow prisoners they've ratted them out (or threatening to do so if they don't talk)...contacting their families and exerting pressure there (psychological)...finding a real truth serum...bribery (money for them or for their families)...something else. When people use torture, do they really believe what the person tells them and stop?? I don't know the answer to that. Some of these people must have weaknesses...desecrating their bodies when they die...something. My real question is what do we need from them? Names? Locations? We ought to have easier ways to get that information besides pulling out someone's fingernails. Especially when we're dealing with people who will strap explosives to their bodies and blow themselves up...
 
MaggieD said:
We might do better if we concentrated our medical and psychological resources on figuring out a better way...psychological warfare...bribery...telling their fellow prisoners they've ratted them out (or threatening to do so if they don't talk)...contacting their families and exerting pressure there (psychological)...finding a real truth serum...bribery (money for them or for their families)...something else. When people use torture, do they really believe what the person tells them and stop?? I don't know the answer to that. Some of these people must have weaknesses...desecrating their bodies when they die...something. My real question is what do we need from them? Names? Locations? We ought to have easier ways to get that information besides pulling out someone's fingernails. Especially when we're dealing with people who will strap explosives to their bodies and blow themselves up...
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Yes, generally psychological methods are the most effective form of interrogation - playing a mental chess game with the prisoner. In most cases of physical torture, the individual will simply say whatever it takes to get you to stop torturing him, which is why it's so notoriously unreliable. That's what most CIA case officers will tell you.
 
MrVicchio said:
The WWII example is a fail, as usual with you. What were the Japanese officers hoping to accomplish with waterboarding? Getting vital information in a timely manner under strict controls or punishing American's for being the enemy?

There in is the definition of "torture", and the one the Progressives are so dishonest about.
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It's not the only example. We punished our own soliders in VN for waterboarding. We've punished civilian authorities here. if anyone is being dishonest, it would be those who pretend we don't know that waterboarding is torture.
 
j-mac said:
Being honest about it, I would say that depends on the severity of threat, and immanence of attack. Also, the conventional nature of the enemy we face. If our enemy in this war declared on us were a conventional enemy then methods for intel gathering would be a clear violation, however we don't fight a conventional enemy in this war, more like lying cowards that hide behind women and children, use no identifying characteristics like uniform, and are signatories to no conventions or treaties that govern their actions in civil warfare. In fact they are called to lie, cheat, or torture themselves in order to achieve their own ends, and those that argue that we are to tie our hands behind our backs in order to be 'better', do not understand the first thing about what war is, or how it is won.

j-mac
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There is really no realistic chance of a hypothetical in which there si a ticking time bomb. We are unlikely to know of such a threat. Even less likely to have the one guy who knows exactly who and where and when. I think TV has created in us unrealistic views of things. Getting real information requires something other than torture. Torture is most effective at getting confessions, as even the innocent will confess. Getting information requires much more skill and effort.

StillBallin75 is quite correct when he says this:

Yes, generally psychological methods are the most effective form of interrogation - playing a mental chess game with the prisoner. In most cases of physical torture, the individual will simply say whatever it takes to get you to stop torturing him, which is why it's so notoriously unreliable. That's what most CIA case officers will tell you.
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Boo Radley said:
Quit pretending those are the same thing. Even those who started and run SERE say they are not the same.

And remember, SERE is largely to get you prepared for torture.
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So waterboarding is only a preparation for torture. Thank you. You heard it here folks. :mrgreen:
 
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American said:
So waterboarding is only a preparation for torture. Thank you. You heard it here folks. :mrgreen:
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Not exactly what I said, but I think you know that. Is this another dishonest attempt to sidestep the point?

:coffeepap
 
j-mac said:
Really? KSM was innocent? What innocent people have been waterboarded? And be sure to include your proof of claim please, I do not take your word for it.

j-mac
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There are many innocent people who are being held at Gitmo (Wilkerson: Cheney, Bush, and Rumsfeld Knew About Innocent Detainees At Gitmo) ('Guantanamo files': Dozens held were innocent - Americas - Al Jazeera English) (Ex-Bush Official: Many At Guantanamo Bay Are Innocent | Fox News) (George Bush, Dick Cheney 'knew Guantanamo Bay prisoners were innocent': report - New York Daily News)

However, this is becoming worse as many military officials are arguing that the US should have the authority to hold prisoners indefinitely, regardless of whether or not they are guilty. (Military Prosecutors: U.S. Has Authority to Detain Gitmo Prisoners Indefinitely, Regardless of Guilt)
 
terrorists dont play by the rules, they don't fight under a flag and they target women and children so I think that waterboarding is justified, just give them a shower cap and some water googles...
 
Waterboarding is nothing more than simulated drowning. No physical harm is done.

Daniel Pearl would have preferred it.
 
Higgins86 said:
terrorists dont play by the rules, they don't fight under a flag and they target women and children so I think that waterboarding is justified, just give them a shower cap and some water googles...
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Gorilla warfare is American though good sir.
 
Higgins86 said:
terrorists dont play by the rules, they don't fight under a flag and they target women and children so I think that waterboarding is justified, just give them a shower cap and some water googles...
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What if the individual in question - for instance, an innocent prisoner at Gitmo - is NOT a terrorist, but is perhaps suspected of being one?
 
StillBallin75 said:
What if the individual in question - for instance, an innocent prisoner at Gitmo - is NOT a terrorist, but is perhaps suspected of being one?
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what if the man doing life is innocent, what if the man you let go was actually guilty. That is always the risk we run
 
CedarBear said:
Waterboarding is nothing more than simulated drowning. No physical harm is done.
Daniel Pearl would have preferred it.
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Drowning means dying from asphyxiation brought on from water in the lungs. So I am not sure why you chose to use the phrase "nothing more"--waterboarding is nothing more than a simulation of killing someone. IDK. It just sound like a weird place for the phrase, imho. ymmv.

In the US anyway, the definition of torture includes psychological torture.

Daniel Pearl would have preferred to come home unharmed to his wife and unborn child over being water boarded. He also may have preferred chocolate ice cream to vanilla ice cream.

Is there a point in your post somewhere? Just curious.
 
Higgins86 said:
terrorists dont play by the rules, they don't fight under a flag and they target women and children so I think that waterboarding is justified, just give them a shower cap and some water googles...
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So, we should aspire to be more like them? I quite disagree, especially when what you advocate is less likley to get us reliable information.
 
Higgins86 said:
what if the man doing life is innocent, what if the man you let go was actually guilty. That is always the risk we run
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Not an acceptable risk for people with clear moral codes who adhere to rule of law.
 
Boo Radley said:
So, we should aspire to be more like them? I quite disagree, especially when what you advocate is less likley to get us reliable information.
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We should aspire to win the war. There aren't any points for good sportsmanship.

If we have to rough-up a few scumbag terrorists, then that's cool with me.
 
TheDemSocialist said:
[/COLOR][/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Tahoma, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif]Read full article here: [/FONT]'Waterboarding is torture,' says Obama - CSMonitor.com
[FONT=Arial, Tahoma, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif]Is this a campaign stunt to gain support? Yes. Do i agree with what he has to say about water boarding? Absolutely. I also believe it is torture..[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Tahoma, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif]Thoughts?[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Tahoma, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif]Comments?[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Tahoma, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif]Response? [/FONT]


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BRIAN WILLIAMS: “Can you confirm that it was as a result of waterboadring that we learned what we needed to learn to go after Bin Laden?”

LEON PANETTA: “Clearly some of it came from detainees and the advanced interrogation of detainees…”

BRIAN WILLIAMS: “Are you saying that waterboarding was in part among the tactics used to extract the intelligence that led to this successful mission.”

LEON PANETTA: “I think some of the detainees, uh, clearly, uh, they used these advanced interrogation techniques against some of these detainees.”

BRIAN WILLIAMS: “So finer point, one final time, that includes waterboarding?”

LEON PANETTA: “That is correct.”
 
Jryan said:
Gorilla warfare is American though good sir.
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Actually, it's Spanish. The term, "guerilla", was coined during the Peninsular War.
 
Goshin said:
Ah. So if you implicitly agree to be tortured, it's okay. Got it.
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since our soldiers volunteer for the training, they are volunteering to be waterboarded
since the terrorist POS voluntarily became terrorist POS, they are volunteering to be waterboarded
 
apdst said:
We should aspire to win the war. There aren't any points for good sportsmanship.

If we have to rough-up a few scumbag terrorists, then that's cool with me.
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Us winning was and is never dependent on us torturing anyone. In fact, there was and is no chance of al Qaeda or any such group ever beating us. We can only defeat ourselves by losing sight of what makes us different, us better, and betraying our own values and our own laws.
 
Boo Radley said:
Us winning was and is never dependent on us torturing anyone. In fact, there was and is no chance of al Qaeda or any such group ever beating us. We can only defeat ourselves by losing sight of what makes us different, us better, and betraying our own values and our own laws.
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But, it is dependent on gathering as much information about the enemy as possible and orture may be needed to collect that information.

Wars have been lost because of intelligence failures.
 
apdst said:
But, it is dependent on gathering as much information about the enemy as possible and orture may be needed to collect that information.

Wars have been lost because of intelligence failures.
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Not really, not in what we face today. But, again, the most unrelaible way to gather information it through torture. Torture is much more effective at getting confessions. Even the innocent will confess. If you want information, you use more effective methods.
 
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