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'Waterboarding is torture,' says Obama

Boo Radley said:
Not true. Seriously. it isn't.
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Not true? Seriously? Oh well, since you threw in the Seriously then I should believe you....:roll:

The fact remains there are far more effective methods. If you want real intel, better to use the most effective methods.
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That is your opinion, doesn't make it true. Sorry.

Oh, and as noted above, we have tortured innocent people, and there is little way to prevent that from never happening. To protect the innocent, you do have to have rules that include everyone.
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I am sure you can prove your claim here? Give it a go.

j-mac
 
Goshin said:
Has Obama issued an Executive Order stopping the use of waterboarding on our own troops during SERE training?

If not, why not? Surely we don't torture our own soldiers?


(/irony)
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What information are they trying to extract from soldiers? What purpose is this "torture" serving but to train soldiers put against it? The post above is a classic example of an asinine statement provided by somebody with little grasp of the word "context".
 
Obama may be against waterboarding, but he isn't against spending up to a $100 million for a new prison in Bagram while advocating for Medicare cuts at home.

“the construction of Detention Facility in Parwan (DFIP), Bagram, Afghanistan” which includes “detainee housing capability for approximately 2000 detainees.” It will also feature “guard towers, administrative facility and Vehicle/Personnel Access Control Gates, security surveillance and restricted access systems.” The announcement provided: ”the estimated cost of the project is between $25,000,000 to $100,000,000.”
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U.S. to build new massive prison in Bagram - Afghanistan - Salon.com

Afterall, the population at Bagram has tripled under his watch. "There are currently more than 1,700 detainees at Bagram, up from over 600 at the end of the Bush administration."
The Gitmo no one talks about - Afghanistan - Salon.com
 
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Hatuey said:
What information are they trying to extract from soldiers? What purpose is this "torture" serving but to train soldiers put against it? The post above is a classic example of an asinine statement provided by somebody with little grasp of the word "context".
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Waterboarding extracted the intel that allowed the military to find OBL during the Obama administration. That is a fact.

j-mac
 
j-mac said:
Wait a minute....LOL, are you saying it is ongoing? Let's see your proof.

j-mac
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I wasn't aware that the practice had been stopped. This is one situation where I'm quite pleased to be wrong.
 
j-mac said:
Waterboarding extracted the intel that allowed the military to find OBL during the Obama administration. That is a fact.
j-mac
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Lmao, no it didn't. Oh wait, I know what you're going to do now, you're going to cite the half quote of "enhanced interrogation techniques" by Leon Panetta as proof? Good luck with that.
 
I think we should do everything we can to handicap our intel gathering capabilites.
 
Goshin said:
Has Obama issued an Executive Order stopping the use of waterboarding on our own troops during SERE training?

If not, why not? Surely we don't torture our own soldiers?


(/irony)
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One's involuntary, the other isn't. Big difference.
 
Hatuey said:
Lmao, no it didn't. Oh wait, I know what you're going to do now, you're going to cite the half quote of "enhanced interrogation techniques" by Leon Panetta as proof? Good luck with that.
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And, you know this how?
 
Whether or not waterboarding has ever produced information is irrelevant. There are other ways to get information besides torture. Especially this type of extreme torture. I agree that our government should be able to use techniques to get information from people who are clearly lying, however, waterboarding is going too far. You have to draw the line somewhere. We are a civilized country. Well we are supposedly civilized.
 
friday said:
Waterboarding is not torture. It is a technique that I don't think the military should use on combatants who fall under US law or the Geneva conventions. However, the Geneva Conventions do not apply to non-uniformed enemy combatants except in the case where they are members of a peaceful nation/organization that has been quickly invaded and they have not had a chance to form an army/militia with rank and identifying uniform. That is not the case with Al Qaida. Human decency is what guides our treatment of captured terrorists, not any laws or conventions. And I do not believe that pouring water on an illegal terrorist's face in order to save thousands of innocent lives is beyond the scope of American human decency. It certainly is not beyond precedent. In WWII we would hang non-uniformed enemy combatants with nothing more than a military trial.
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Waterboarding is something that we put Japanese military officers on trial for, after WWII. The US always regarded the practice as torture until the Necons took power. Then, under Bush, everything changed. Now it has changed again, and for the better.
 
danarhea said:
Waterboarding is something that we put Japanese military officers on trial for, after WWII. The US always regarded the practice as torture until the Necons took power. Then, under Bush, everything changed. Now it has changed again, and for the better.
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Crazy how we completely ignore history sometimes.
 
apdst said:
I think we should do everything we can to handicap our intel gathering capabilites.
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I think we should do everything we can to not sink to the level of our enemies and maintain our status as the unequivocal good guys. No matter how hard we fight, if we sacrifice what we're fighting for, we still lose.
 
apdst said:
And, you know this how?
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Banned since Obama took office, head of the Senate Armed Services Committee, John McCain, said it didn't, the name for Bin Laden's courier came from somebody who hadn't been held in Guantanamo, as stated by the head of the CIA, the list of evidence against any claims that waterboarding led to Bin Laden is overwhelming. Peter King and the other torture sycophants are simply talking out of their asses. The people who are actually in charge said it didn't. Now go troll elsewhere. :shrug:
 
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cpwill said:
how in the world is Obama saying that waterboarding is torture breaking news?
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Obviously you didn't watch the press conference last night!:mrgreen:
 
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friday said:
Waterboarding is not torture. It is a technique that I don't think the military should use on combatants who fall under US law or the Geneva conventions. However, the Geneva Conventions do not apply to non-uniformed enemy combatants except in the case where they are members of a peaceful nation/organization that has been quickly invaded and they have not had a chance to form an army/militia with rank and identifying uniform. That is not the case with Al Qaida. Human decency is what guides our treatment of captured terrorists, not any laws or conventions. And I do not believe that pouring water on an illegal terrorist's face in order to save thousands of innocent lives is beyond the scope of American human decency. It certainly is not beyond precedent. In WWII we would hang non-uniformed enemy combatants with nothing more than a military trial.
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Water-boarding / torture is perfect for making somebody say something they wouldn't normally say. Ask John McCain about his experience in the Hanoi Hilton.
 
I like how waterboarding is not torture... it is actually quite a pleasant technique of aggressive facewashing used to clean the dirty beards of the durka durkas. :roll:

No, really, it's not torture, yet how does it work to produce the magic results we see cited in this thread?
 
Hatuey said:
Lmao, no it didn't. Oh wait, I know what you're going to do now, you're going to cite the half quote of "enhanced interrogation techniques" by Leon Panetta as proof? Good luck with that.
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I think the quote you cite is the half quote. During the same MSNBC interview Panetta acknowledge that the methods included waterboarding. That would be the other half.

CIA chief: Waterboarding aided bin Laden raid - TODAY News - TODAY.com

The Video. Intelligence gathering part occurs around 8:30.
 
pbrauer said:
Water-boarding / torture is perfect for making somebody say something they wouldn't normally say. Ask John McCain about his experience in the Hanoi Hilton.
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So, if you don't torture a prisoner, they will tell you the truth?
 
I'm sick of these waterboarding and torture threads. The end result is either conservatives are too ashamed to admit they approved of pointless torture or they just want to torture.
 
Boo Radley said:
No, something watered down with no real fear of it going too far. That makes it very different.
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That's not how my Marine buddy described his experience with it.
 
Goshin said:
That's not how my Marine buddy described his experience with it.
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When he gets waterboarded for extend periods around the clock for a month or two or tries to kill himself by smashing his skull against the wall, I might think your marine buddy has an idea.
 
Goshin said:
That's not how my Marine buddy described his experience with it.
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I agree, the fear would still be there because you could logically think, "What if he makes a mistake?"
 
Goshin said:
That's not how my Marine buddy described his experience with it.
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Doesn't matter. Not saying there is NO fear, only that it is less than if you were in enemy hands. Like I said, those who created the program and those who run it both say it is not the same. And they say it for the same reasons I have stated.
 
j-mac said:
That is your opinion, doesn't make it true. Sorry.
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Torture, interrogation and needing information is not new. Much is written on it. Torture, including waterboarding, is much better at getting a confession, as even the innocent will confess, but not good at getting real information. the litature says you're every bit as likely to get misinformation. And we have an example of this. Remember al Libi? He gave us all kinds of misinformation that we used to sell the Iraq war. It was true. But, hell, we used it. Misinformation led us down the wrong path, and this is what is most comon with torture.


I am sure you can prove your claim here? Give it a go.

j-mac
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I have before j. You might book mark it this time. ;)

An in-depth look at the torture practices of the United States in Afghanistan, Iraq and Guantanamo Bay, focusing on an innocent taxi driver in Afghanistan who was tortured and killed in 2002.

Taxi to the Dark Side (2007) - IMDb

In March 2006, the CBS News program, "60 Minutes" investigated the deaths of two Afghan prisoners, including Dilawar, revealing that authorization for the abuse came from the "very top of the United States government". "60 Minutes" correspondent Scott Pelley interviewed retired Army Colonel Lawrence Wilkerson, who was appointed chief of staff by Secretary of State Colin Powell in 2002, during George W. Bush’s first administration. Willie V. Brand, one of the soldiers convicted of assault and maiming in the deaths of the two prisoners, and Brand’s commanding officer, Capt. Christopher Beiring, were also featured in the program.

Dilawar (torture victim) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Even as the young Afghan man was dying before them, his American jailers continued to torment him.

The prisoner, a slight, 22-year-old taxi driver known only as Dilawar, was hauled from his cell at the detention center in Bagram, Afghanistan, at around 2 a.m. to answer questions about a rocket attack on an American base. When he arrived in the interrogation room, an interpreter who was present said, his legs were bouncing uncontrollably in the plastic chair and his hands were numb. He had been chained by the wrists to the top of his cell for much of the previous four days.

(snip)

He also added a detail that had been overlooked in the investigative file. By the time Mr. Dilawar was taken into his final interrogations, he said, "most of us were convinced that the detainee was innocent."

In U.S. Report, Brutal Details of 2 Afghan Inmates' Deaths - New York Times

Torture Tactics: Interview with Alex Gibney . NOW on PBS

http://www.humanrightsfirst.org/200...f-taxi-driver-detained-by-u-s-in-afghanistan/
 
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