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Thread: 'Waterboarding is torture,' says Obama

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    Re: 'Waterboarding is torture,' says Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by jambalaya View Post
    So I guess it is only used because the guards and interrogators get bored or are all cruel sadistic bastards. If there so many other effective, proven options waterboarding would be extremely rare. Your conclusions just don't add up. I completely agree that the fatal flaw in any interrogation technique is that you cannot be sure what you are being told is true. The information has to be verfied. Let's just say that waterboarding is no more and no less effective than other techniques at our disposal. Psycholigical techniques take a lot of time to be effective and in the end you have no more gaurantee that the information is true than you have with something like waterboarding. And if the information is true their is no gaurantee it is still valid. If you catch someone who has been killing your fellow soldiers, killing civilians, killing your fellow citizens and hell bent on killing you I think you would have a better perspective about interrogation and the need to get timely information. I do not condone other forms of torture. Yes, I consider waterboarding torture. But I can't rule it out as an option. Your one example that you keep bringing up about its ineffectiveness only proves what we already know; It is not always effective just like any other form of interrogation. There is evidence that it saves lives but you can choose not to believe it. Not going to bother citing more examples for you to rationalize away.
    No, I would not say it is because they get bored. Largely they are following orders and have not been educated enough on the proper procedures. I note again it was the military and actual experts who led the charge to stop this.

    And running around chasing misinformation is time consuming. remember, we actually acted on al Libi's misinformation. Can you not see how much that can hurt us?

    There are two reasons not to torture:

    1) It is ineffective and unrelaible. This means it is not likely to save any lives or really help us at all. And there is really no such thing as the ticking timebomb.

    2) It is illegal and immoral. Conservatives used to speak of core values, of honor, but in this they seem to mean that core values are only core when we want them to be. Rule of law is only important if we using them to push around some young people at a OWS rally. And torute is cruel only when people we don't like do it. It's proper for us. I can't reconcile these contradictions and hypocracy. We need to have core values and respect rule of law, especially among people who represent our values and our laws.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: 'Waterboarding is torture,' says Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by Higgins86 View Post
    problem with that is the military have their hands tied by the suits back home, in Iraq we could do nothing without permission and if you stop bombing areas that means the ground units have to clear them out which would cause major casulties. As soon as the body bags start rolling of those planes people back home stop supporting the war.
    We have civilian leadership. So such has always been the case, and that is how it shoudl be.

    However, you're missing one important point, it was the military that objected to torture, who make it public, who fought it being used. It was poor civilian leadership that tried to push it.

    And we didn't need to have any units in iraq. We never needed to invade. But you are confusing a couple of things here. I'll explain more when I return.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

  3. #223
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    Re: 'Waterboarding is torture,' says Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by Simon W. Moon View Post
    I can re-post these links a third time too if it'll help.
    and what you win the argument because you posted some links? Buddy this is the internet I could post a million links about why waterboarding is effective, I could post links about recent events about the fact
    waterboarding helped us get bin Laden: This interrogation tactic was integral to extracting information years ago from Khalid Sheikh Mohammed and Abu Faraj al-Libi that helped us find and kill bin Laden

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    Re: 'Waterboarding is torture,' says Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    We have civilian leadership. So such has always been the case, and that is how it shoudl be.

    However, you're missing one important point, it was the military that objected to torture, who make it public, who fought it being used. It was poor civilian leadership that tried to push it.

    And we didn't need to have any units in iraq. We never needed to invade. But you are confusing a couple of things here. I'll explain more when I return.
    Funny people I met in Basra thought we needed to invade and they seemed pretty happy about it, but of course you know better...

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    Re: 'Waterboarding is torture,' says Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by Higgins86 View Post
    and what you win the argument because you posted some links? Buddy this is the internet I could post a million links about why waterboarding is effective, I could post links about recent events about the fact
    I won't stop you. Thanks for explaining that this is the internet, buddy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Higgins86 View Post
    waterboarding helped us get bin Laden: This interrogation tactic was integral to extracting information years ago from Khalid Sheikh Mohammed and Abu Faraj al-Libi that helped us find and kill bin Laden
    Even if this was true, it doesn't speak to the comparison between the various methods, nor does it serve to establish the overall effectiveness of waterboarding.

    I chose links from professionals in the field of interrogation who made comparisons between torture and other methods of interrogation like the US military and the US intelligence agencies.
    I may be wrong.

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    Re: 'Waterboarding is torture,' says Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by Higgins86 View Post
    Funny people I met in Basra thought we needed to invade and they seemed pretty happy about it, but of course you know better...
    Well, as long as it made some foreigners happy I guess that's all the justification we need. It also pleased some people in Iran too, so bonus bargain there.
    I may be wrong.

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    Re: 'Waterboarding is torture,' says Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    I whole heartly agree with you. But I will say this, it isn't usually monsters who do monstrous things. Generally good people too often accept an authority, follow the rules as they understand them, and end up doing things they would have never considered monstrous. Sadly.
    "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." -- disputed

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    Re: 'Waterboarding is torture,' says Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by Higgins86 View Post
    Funny people I met in Basra thought we needed to invade and they seemed pretty happy about it, but of course you know better...
    when were you in Basra? I was there Aug '09 - June '10 and almost every Iraqi I met was damn glad we were there
    The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter.

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    Re: 'Waterboarding is torture,' says Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Karl View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by apdst, replying to another View Post
    You're right and torture shouldn't be the first option, however it shouldn't ruled out as an option, either. [...]
    Indeed. If the prisoner will not willingly provide the false information you need, then you'll probably have to torture him to get it.
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    Re: 'Waterboarding is torture,' says Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by Higgins86, replying to another View Post
    and what you win the argument because you posted some links? Buddy this is the internet I could post a million links about why waterboarding is effective, [...]
    But would they all lead back to Fox News?

    Quote Originally Posted by Higgins86, continuing View Post
    [...] waterboarding helped us get bin Laden: This interrogation tactic was integral to extracting information years ago from Khalid Sheikh Mohammed and Abu Faraj al-Libi that helped us find and kill bin Laden
    That argument is weak and contradictory; all you have is a very loose quote from Panetta that was obtained after a bit of badgering (at which point I'm not confident he knew exactly what he was replying to, nor that he even had first-hand knowledge since the waterboarding took place years before his appointment as CIA director).

    Transcript of Panetta interview

    Osama bin Laden’s Death, and the Unjustifiable Defense of Torture and Guantánamo | Andy Worthington

    Try something besides repetition of talking points, eh?

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