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Thread: 'Waterboarding is torture,' says Obama

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    Re: 'Waterboarding is torture,' says Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by Higgins86 View Post
    so what are you fine with? How would you deal with them?
    Them? In a fire fight, you fight. People get shot. It happens. Once captured, follow rule of law. Bombing areas where civilians are is ineffective and likely creates more problems than it solves. understand the military is too large and clumsy to be the primary instrument in this type of effort. Smaller, more surgical nits should be used. No bombings of civilian areas, follow rule of law, and behave with the honor and moral clarity we profess.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: 'Waterboarding is torture,' says Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by Higgins86 View Post
    not as effective though...
    As noted many times now, those protocals are more effective than torture.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: 'Waterboarding is torture,' says Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by Simon W. Moon View Post
    We could skip the search for false information altogether. Just a thought.
    How do you know the information is false, before you even know what the information is?

    And ftr, if Karl were unable to answer such a question it still wouldn't add any validity to your position. It would merely mean that Karl was unable to provide an answer. To assume otherwise is fall victim to the logical fallacy called argument from ignorance.
    For an argument to have credibility, it needs to counter what my argument. "Let's don't do that", isn't argument, nor is, "I'm right, because you're not".

    Obviously, we're going to vote for national leaders that share our points of view. If those leaders oppose a little bit of rough treatment of a prisoner, or even some mild torture, then it's their duty to the country to come with an alternative method of extracting information from captured enemy fighters.

    It's a problem that I have with most Leftward thinking folks; they always know what we shouldn't be doing, but can never tell us what we should be doing, instead.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: 'Waterboarding is torture,' says Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    As noted many times now, those protocals are more effective than torture.
    And, when those protocols don't work, then what? Throw our hands up and say, "well, we tried!"? Are you ok with American soldiers possibly dieing, because someone was too limp-wristed to rough up a prisoner? I'm not ok with it at all.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: 'Waterboarding is torture,' says Obama

    We certainly know we got false information from people we waterboarded. We can even varify specific examples of this. We cannot do the same with claims that we actually got good intel. Yet many are willing to believe without any actual evidence that toirture works. Funny that.


    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: 'Waterboarding is torture,' says Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    yes, I've seen the claims. What I notice is that they don't give any examples of where it worked, nothing we can verify. I can give you an example, a verifiable example of where it got us misinformation that we used to our detriment: al Libi.

    If it was a sucessful as this claim you link suggests, why can not one example equal to mine be given? I also wonder why you don't ask them to prove they had success? Why debunk something that hasn't even been supported by actual evidence yet?

    BTW, I don't use the word ever. To be ineffective it does not have to never lead to information. It's that all or nothing thinking that gets us into so much trouble. You have to study things for a period of time, compare it with other methods, and determine the most effective versus the least effective. The litature says torture is the least effective way.
    So I guess it is only used because the guards and interrogators get bored or are all cruel sadistic bastards. If there so many other effective, proven options waterboarding would be extremely rare. Your conclusions just don't add up. I completely agree that the fatal flaw in any interrogation technique is that you cannot be sure what you are being told is true. The information has to be verfied. Let's just say that waterboarding is no more and no less effective than other techniques at our disposal. Psycholigical techniques take a lot of time to be effective and in the end you have no more gaurantee that the information is true than you have with something like waterboarding. And if the information is true their is no gaurantee it is still valid. If you catch someone who has been killing your fellow soldiers, killing civilians, killing your fellow citizens and hell bent on killing you I think you would have a better perspective about interrogation and the need to get timely information. I do not condone other forms of torture. Yes, I consider waterboarding torture. But I can't rule it out as an option. Your one example that you keep bringing up about its ineffectiveness only proves what we already know; It is not always effective just like any other form of interrogation. There is evidence that it saves lives but you can choose not to believe it. Not going to bother citing more examples for you to rationalize away.

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    Re: 'Waterboarding is torture,' says Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    And, when those protocols don't work, then what? Throw our hands up and say, "well, we tried!"? Are you ok with American soldiers possibly dieing, because someone was too limp-wristed to rough up a prisoner? I'm not ok with it at all.
    Well, we've tortured with only getting misinformation. What then?

    You simply don't understand two very clear concepts: 1) Becoming what we've dennounced for as long as we've been alive, breaking our own laws, is no way to win an argument that we have the better way. and 2) that doing something ineffective isn't going to save many lives. If you really care about the lives, do the things that are most effective.

    Also, as noted before, it is really unlikely that you will ever have that ticking bomb hypothethical so many are so fond of. There is really next to no situation that will really come up that you would have to torture someone. So your entire point is based on a false premise.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: 'Waterboarding is torture,' says Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    How do you know the information is false, before you even know what the information is?
    That's the kind of information you were talking about. Check the thread you'll see it's true. Not my fault that you didn't notice that.
    .
    observe
    .
    Quote Originally Posted by Karl View Post
    Indeed. If the prisoner will not willingly provide the false information you need, then you'll probably have to torture him to get it.
    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    What's your solution?
    Quote Originally Posted by Simon W. Moon View Post
    We could skip the search for false information altogether. Just a thought.
    .

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    For an argument to have credibility, it needs to counter what my argument. "Let's don't do that", isn't argument, nor is, "I'm right, because you're not".
    That much is true.

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    ...then it's their duty to the country to come with an alternative method of extracting information from captured enemy fighters.
    As has been pointed out, we already have such methods.
    I may be wrong.

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    Re: 'Waterboarding is torture,' says Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by jambalaya View Post
    If there so many other effective, proven options waterboarding would be extremely rare.
    It is extremely rare. Iirc, 3 people were subjected to it.
    I may be wrong.

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    Re: 'Waterboarding is torture,' says Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Them? In a fire fight, you fight. People get shot. It happens. Once captured, follow rule of law. Bombing areas where civilians are is ineffective and likely creates more problems than it solves. understand the military is too large and clumsy to be the primary instrument in this type of effort. Smaller, more surgical nits should be used. No bombings of civilian areas, follow rule of law, and behave with the honor and moral clarity we profess.

    problem with that is the military have their hands tied by the suits back home, in Iraq we could do nothing without permission and if you stop bombing areas that means the ground units have to clear them out which would cause major casulties. As soon as the body bags start rolling of those planes people back home stop supporting the war.

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