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Thread: 'Waterboarding is torture,' says Obama

  1. #201
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    Re: 'Waterboarding is torture,' says Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by Higgins86 View Post
    so what are you fine with? How would you deal with them?
    Well, we could follow the previously established protocols that have been recently re-affirmed.
    I may be wrong.

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    Re: 'Waterboarding is torture,' says Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by Simon W. Moon View Post
    Well, we could follow the previously established protocols that have been recently re-affirmed.

    not as effective though...

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    Re: 'Waterboarding is torture,' says Obama

    I challenge anyone that believes water boarding is not torture to under go water boarding for 10 minutes with one question given to them before it starts, Now do you think it's not torture?

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    Re: 'Waterboarding is torture,' says Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by barbarian_style View Post

    I challenge anyone that believes water boarding is not torture to under go water boarding for 10 minutes with one question given to them before it starts, Now do you think it's not torture?
    Here's someone who accepted such a challenge ...

    Believe Me, Itís Torture - ByChristopher Hitchens

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    Re: 'Waterboarding is torture,' says Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by Karl View Post
    Indeed. If the prisoner will not willingly provide the false information you need, then you'll probably have to torture him to get it.
    What's your solution?
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: 'Waterboarding is torture,' says Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by Higgins86 View Post
    not as effective though...
    Says you.
    As I have already posted a number of professionals in the field hold a different opinion.

    United States Marine Corps Interrogator Translator Teams Association
    Effectiveness of Torture
    In addition to being illegal, these acts are frequently ineffective and counter-productive. The Romans threatened the early Christians with crucifixion, being burned at the stake, or being fed to wild animals in the Coliseum if they did not reject their new religion and embrace the many gods of Roman: Thousands chose death. Joan of Arc was tried before an ecclesiastical tribunal accused of witchcraft and heresy because she claimed to be guided by divine voices. She was told to admit that she heard no such voices or be burned at the stake: She was not dissuaded by death. William Wallace, of Braveheart popularity, was hanged, drawn and quartered because he refused to swear allegiance to King Edward I. The threat of certain and excruciating death was ineffective in dissuading these and their deaths had opposite effects: the slaughter of Christians contributed to the conversion of Rome; Joan of Arc is widely remembered today while few remember the name of the French king she served and who contributed to her demise; and, the death of William Wallace invigorated the Scots to successively eject the English from Scotland.

    This is not to say that coercive techniques always fail to influence or prompt some action. These techniques have caused men to do as their abusers wanted them to do or say, and, at times, caused the unintended death of the detainee; for example,

    1) "The barbarous custom of having men beaten who are suspected of having important secrets to reveal must be abolished. It has always been recognized that this way of interrogating men, by putting them to torture, produces nothing worthwhile. The poor wretches say anything that comes into their mind and what they think the interrogator wishes to know."
    Napoleon Bonepart (5)

    2) Four days after the war started and two days after he was captured, an American lieutenant was heard broadcasting over Seoul radio on behalf of the Democratic People's Republic of [North] Korea. He was followed by others making similar statements and even confessions of using germ warfare weapons. It wasn't long before a journalist explained what was happening to them: "Americans are being brainwashed in Korea." Although these men were not "tortured"--as defined at the time by the U.S. Army: "the application of pain so extreme that it causes a man to faint or lose control of his will"--they were coerced and abused into saying what the Koreans/Chinese wanted them to say. (6)

    3) During the Vietnam War, Americans were, in the most profound sense of the word, tortured into making confessions of using bacteriological weapons against the North Vietnamese and other acts considered to be criminal by the world community: statements the Americans knew were false.

    4) According to the Innocence Project at the Benjamin N. Cardozo School of Law, Yeshiva University, duress, coercion, and violence (threatened or performed) have led innocent Americans to confess to crimes they did not perpetrate. The Project reports that, "33 of the first 123 postconviction DNA exonerations involve false confessions or admissions." (7)

    5) On 27 May 2004, The New York Times reported that on 30 August 2003, LTC Alvin B. West, an artillery battalion commander, detained an Iraqi police officer named Yehiya Kadoori Hamoodi for interrogation because West believed the officer knew about a "plot to ambush him and his men." West "made a calculated decision to intimidate the Iraqi officer with a show of force . . . [even though he previously] had never conducted or witnessed an interrogation." The Interrogation of Hamoodi, that included hitting him and threatening his life, failed to produce the desired answers. West then fired his pistol next to his head. Hamoodi gave West the names of several men who were purportedly involved in an effort to kill him. One man was picked up and shortly thereafter released; none of the named men were determined to be involved in the so-called plot. Later, "Mr. Hamoodi said that he was not sure what he told the Americans, but that it was meaningless information induced by fear and pain."

    6) According to a 12 June 2004 Navy Times story, two Marines, during "motion hearings" held on 28 & 29 June 2004, faced charges in connection with the death of Nagem Sadoon Hatab, a 52-year-old Baath party member who was being held in a makeshift detention center outside Nasiriya. Allegedly, Hatab had been struck and kicked on 4 June 2003 and the following day was lethargic and had defecated on himself. On 6 June, he was found dead.

    As these examples show, the use of torture and/or abusive techniques frequently fails to elicit the desired response, at times produces a false response, and can result in the death of a potential source of information: A dead source is no source of information!
    .
    for general edification
    .
    1) Educing Information
    Interrogation: Science and Art Foundations for the Future
    Intelligence Science Board National Defense Intelligence College
    Washington, DC December 2006

    (in particular this section)
    KUBARK Counterintelligence Interrogation Review: Observations of an Interrogator – Lessons Learned and Avenues for Further Research

    2) KUBARK [CIA] Counterintelligence Interrogation
    July 1963

    3) Anything about Hanns Scharff
    Have you heard of the Nazi's best interrogator?
    With "no limits" on the techniques at his disposal, how do you suppose he became such a renowned and effective interrogator?
    .
    Welcome to the MCITTA Official Web Site
    Marine Corps Interrogator Translator Teams Association
    Hanns Scharff — Master Interrogator
    Hanns Scharff was primarily an American 8th and 9th Air Force Fighter pilot interrogator. [During WW II against Germany.] He was considered the best of the interrogators at Dulag Luft. He gained the reputation of magically getting all the answers he needed from the prisoners of war, often with the prisoners never realizing that their words, small talk or otherwise, were important pieces of the mosaic. It is said he always treated his prisoners with respect and dignity, and by using psychic not physical techniques, he was able to make them drop their guard and converse with him even though they were conditioned to remain silent.

    Hanns Scharff - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    He has been called the "Master Interrogator" of the Luftwaffe and possibly all of Nazi Germany...
    He is highly praised for the success of his techniques, especially considering he never used physical means to obtain the required information. No evidence exists he even raised his voice in the presence of a prisoner of war (POW). Scharff’s interrogation techniques were so effective that he was often called upon to assist other German interrogators in their questioning of bomber pilots and aircrews, including those crews and fighter pilots from countries other than the United States. Additionally, Scharff was charged with questioning V.I.P.s (Very Important Prisoners) that funneled through the interrogation center, namely senior officers and world-famous fighter aces.

    Hanns Scharff




    I may be wrong.

  7. #207
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    Re: 'Waterboarding is torture,' says Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by Karl View Post
    Indeed. If the prisoner will not willingly provide the false information you need, then you'll probably have to torture him to get it.
    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    What's your solution?
    We could skip the search for false information altogether. Just a thought.

    And ftr, if Karl were unable to answer such a question it still wouldn't add any validity to your position. It would merely mean that Karl was unable to provide an answer. To assume otherwise is fall victim to the logical fallacy called argument from ignorance.
    Last edited by Simon W. Moon; 11-17-11 at 07:54 AM.
    I may be wrong.

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    Re: 'Waterboarding is torture,' says Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by Higgins86 View Post
    not as effective though...
    I can re-post these links a third time too if it'll help.
    I may be wrong.

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    Re: 'Waterboarding is torture,' says Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by Sheik Yerbuti View Post
    Here's someone who accepted such a challenge ...

    Believe Me, Itís Torture - ByChristopher Hitchens
    Here's another one who talked the talk and couldn't walk the walk.

    Why do we fall?
    So we can learn to pick ourselves up.

  10. #210
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    Re: 'Waterboarding is torture,' says Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by barbarian_style View Post
    I challenge anyone that believes water boarding is not torture to under go water boarding for 10 minutes with one question given to them before it starts, Now do you think it's not torture?
    already did it...and for longer than 10 minutes. I still don't think it's torture
    The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter.

    An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.

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