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Thread: 'Waterboarding is torture,' says Obama

  1. #181
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    Re: 'Waterboarding is torture,' says Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by OscarB63 View Post
    I beg to differ. shoving bamboo slivers under someone's fingernails is torture. connecting a field generator to someone's genitals is torture. shoving a glass rod up someone's penis and hitting it with a hammer is torture. shoving boiling turkey eggs up someone's ass is torture. cutting someone with a razor and then pouring salt water or alcohol into the wounds is torture.

    tying someone up and pouring water over their face, though uncomfortable (I know, been there done that), is NOT torture. just like putting a pair of panties over a guy's head is not torture.
    *shrugs* Torture is the deliberate and systematic infliction of non-lethal physical or psychological pain on a person. Waterboarding qualifies. It's not really a debatable point.

    I'm not concerned about how effective it is. Although if it were "merely uncomfortable" it's hard to see what the fuss over banning it as a tactic is all about. That's probably the major problem with conservative arguments on this point -- to support water-boarding, they must argue that it is so harmless that it is effectively useless. ????
    Last edited by Cameron; 11-16-11 at 09:33 PM.
    (avatar by Thomas Nast)

  2. #182
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    Re: 'Waterboarding is torture,' says Obama

    Waterboarding would be better described as simulated drowning.

    You feel like you're drowning. Actually drowning.

    It's ****ing torture, you ****ing monsters.
    He touched her over her bra and underpants, she says, and guided her hand to touch him over his underwear
    Quote Originally Posted by Lutherf View Post
    We’ll say what? Something like “nothing happened” ... Yeah, we might say something like that.

  3. #183
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    Re: 'Waterboarding is torture,' says Obama

    for general edification

    1) Educing Information
    Interrogation: Science and Art Foundations for the Future
    Intelligence Science Board National Defense Intelligence College
    Washington, DC December 2006

    (in particular this section)
    KUBARK Counterintelligence Interrogation Review: Observations of an Interrogator – Lessons Learned and Avenues for Further Research

    2) KUBARK [CIA] Counterintelligence Interrogation
    July 1963

    3) Anything about Hanns Scharff
    Have you heard of the Nazi's best interrogator?
    With "no limits" on the techniques at his disposal, how do you suppose he became such a renowned and effective interrogator?
    .
    Welcome to the MCITTA Official Web Site
    Marine Corps Interrogator Translator Teams Association
    Hanns Scharff — Master Interrogator
    Hanns Scharff was primarily an American 8th and 9th Air Force Fighter pilot interrogator. [During WW II against Germany.] He was considered the best of the interrogators at Dulag Luft. He gained the reputation of magically getting all the answers he needed from the prisoners of war, often with the prisoners never realizing that their words, small talk or otherwise, were important pieces of the mosaic. It is said he always treated his prisoners with respect and dignity, and by using psychic not physical techniques, he was able to make them drop their guard and converse with him even though they were conditioned to remain silent.

    Hanns Scharff - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    He has been called the "Master Interrogator" of the Luftwaffe and possibly all of Nazi Germany...
    He is highly praised for the success of his techniques, especially considering he never used physical means to obtain the required information. No evidence exists he even raised his voice in the presence of a prisoner of war (POW). Scharff’s interrogation techniques were so effective that he was often called upon to assist other German interrogators in their questioning of bomber pilots and aircrews, including those crews and fighter pilots from countries other than the United States. Additionally, Scharff was charged with questioning V.I.P.s (Very Important Prisoners) that funneled through the interrogation center, namely senior officers and world-famous fighter aces.

    Hanns Scharff
    Last edited by Simon W. Moon; 11-16-11 at 10:15 PM. Reason: damn forum formatting gremlins
    I may be wrong.

  4. #184
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    Re: 'Waterboarding is torture,' says Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by Deuce View Post
    Waterboarding would be better described as simulated drowning.
    You feel like you're drowning. Actually drowning.
    It's ****ing torture, you ****ing monsters.
    The people participating in this thread really aren't monsters. On the average, they're likely to be pretty decent folk irl
    I may be wrong.

  5. #185
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    Re: 'Waterboarding is torture,' says Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by Simon W. Moon View Post
    Conservatism and Liberalism really don't speak to what is or is not a definition of torture.
    Humans have a tendency to pick teams and just roll with it because it's generally easier than taking the time to sort through the info necessary to make a decision about every issue, and just as (or even more) effective than doing all the work ourselves.
    I may be wrong.

  6. #186
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    Re: 'Waterboarding is torture,' says Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    So, we should aspire to be more like them? I quite disagree, especially when what you advocate is less likley to get us reliable information.

    but your fine with bombing them and sending the troops over to clean up the mess, just as long as the folks back home don't have to hear the gory details right?

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    Re: 'Waterboarding is torture,' says Obama

    More from the Marines



    United States Marine Corps Inter

    Effectiveness of Torture
    In addition to being illegal, these acts are frequently ineffective and counter-productive. The Romans threatened the early Christians with crucifixion, being burned at the stake, or being fed to wild animals in the Coliseum if they did not reject their new religion and embrace the many gods of Roman: Thousands chose death. Joan of Arc was tried before an ecclesiastical tribunal accused of witchcraft and heresy because she claimed to be guided by divine voices. She was told to admit that she heard no such voices or be burned at the stake: She was not dissuaded by death. William Wallace, of Braveheart popularity, was hanged, drawn and quartered because he refused to swear allegiance to King Edward I. The threat of certain and excruciating death was ineffective in dissuading these and their deaths had opposite effects: the slaughter of Christians contributed to the conversion of Rome; Joan of Arc is widely remembered today while few remember the name of the French king she served and who contributed to her demise; and, the death of William Wallace invigorated the Scots to successively eject the English from Scotland.

    This is not to say that coercive techniques always fail to influence or prompt some action. These techniques have caused men to do as their abusers wanted them to do or say, and, at times, caused the unintended death of the detainee; for example,

    1) "The barbarous custom of having men beaten who are suspected of having important secrets to reveal must be abolished. It has always been recognized that this way of interrogating men, by putting them to torture, produces nothing worthwhile. The poor wretches say anything that comes into their mind and what they think the interrogator wishes to know."
    Napoleon Bonepart (5)

    2) Four days after the war started and two days after he was captured, an American lieutenant was heard broadcasting over Seoul radio on behalf of the Democratic People's Republic of [North] Korea. He was followed by others making similar statements and even confessions of using germ warfare weapons. It wasn't long before a journalist explained what was happening to them: "Americans are being brainwashed in Korea." Although these men were not "tortured"--as defined at the time by the U.S. Army: "the application of pain so extreme that it causes a man to faint or lose control of his will"--they were coerced and abused into saying what the Koreans/Chinese wanted them to say. (6)

    3) During the Vietnam War, Americans were, in the most profound sense of the word, tortured into making confessions of using bacteriological weapons against the North Vietnamese and other acts considered to be criminal by the world community: statements the Americans knew were false.

    4) According to the Innocence Project at the Benjamin N. Cardozo School of Law, Yeshiva University, duress, coercion, and violence (threatened or performed) have led innocent Americans to confess to crimes they did not perpetrate. The Project reports that, "33 of the first 123 postconviction DNA exonerations involve false confessions or admissions." (7)

    5) On 27 May 2004, The New York Times reported that on 30 August 2003, LTC Alvin B. West, an artillery battalion commander, detained an Iraqi police officer named Yehiya Kadoori Hamoodi for interrogation because West believed the officer knew about a "plot to ambush him and his men." West "made a calculated decision to intimidate the Iraqi officer with a show of force . . . [even though he previously] had never conducted or witnessed an interrogation." The Interrogation of Hamoodi, that included hitting him and threatening his life, failed to produce the desired answers. West then fired his pistol next to his head. Hamoodi gave West the names of several men who were purportedly involved in an effort to kill him. One man was picked up and shortly thereafter released; none of the named men were determined to be involved in the so-called plot. Later, "Mr. Hamoodi said that he was not sure what he told the Americans, but that it was meaningless information induced by fear and pain."

    6) According to a 12 June 2004 Navy Times story, two Marines, during "motion hearings" held on 28 & 29 June 2004, faced charges in connection with the death of Nagem Sadoon Hatab, a 52-year-old Baath party member who was being held in a makeshift detention center outside Nasiriya. Allegedly, Hatab had been struck and kicked on 4 June 2003 and the following day was lethargic and had defecated on himself. On 6 June, he was found dead.

    As these examples show, the use of torture and/or abusive techniques frequently fails to elicit the desired response, at times produces a false response, and can result in the death of a potential source of information: A dead source is no source of information!
    I may be wrong.

  8. #188
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    Re: 'Waterboarding is torture,' says Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by Simon W. Moon View Post
    Humans have a tendency to pick teams and just roll with it because it's generally easier than taking the time to sort through the info necessary to make a decision about every issue, and just as (or even more) effective than doing all the work ourselves.
    This statement is so wrong. Without a thread steal, do you even understand how your belief system works? I highly doubt it.
    I'm coming to see that no matter what law we regulate, be it the stand your ground act, there is never an objective morally right answer to any morale question; in fact, since there are multiple objectively right answers to every moral question that leaves us with a lot of grey area and a lot of black area (not in the racial since).
    -Jryan

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    Re: 'Waterboarding is torture,' says Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by Jryan View Post
    This statement is so wrong. Without a thread steal, do you even understand how your belief system works? I highly doubt it.
    It doesnt seem any more right or wrong than any other belief system.

  10. #190
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    Re: 'Waterboarding is torture,' says Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by jambalaya View Post
    Can you give me something more concrete than psychological methods? Run through an example for me. I am ready to believe that other forms of interrogation that work but how effective are they as a percentage to something like water boarding? Water boarding has worked but I am sure that it is only reliable to a certain degree. Is there something else more reliable to a greater degree? I am all for a better way but I don't see anything working in most cases. A lot of these guys are just not going to talk.
    United States Marine Corps Interrogator Translator Teams Association

    For the curious, I invite you to read the basic reference for trained U.S. military intelligence interrogators, FM 2-22.3 (FM 34-52) HUMAN INTELLIGENCE COLLECTOR OPERATIONS. You would also find illuminating the book: The Interrogator: The Story of Hanns Joachim Scharff Master Interrogator of the Luftwaffe. This German interrogator purportedly gleaned information from every one of the American and British fighter pilots he interrogated without ever resorting to violence. This is not surprising when you consider: FM 2-22.3 states that direct questioning "works 90 to 95 percent of the time." Even Gen Aussaresses admits in his book, "most of the time I didn't need to resort to torture, but only talk to people." Trained interrogators, of course, know this--the operant words here are, "trained interrogators."
    I may be wrong.

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