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Thread: 'Waterboarding is torture,' says Obama

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    Re: 'Waterboarding is torture,' says Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by Krhazy, replying to another View Post
    Of course waterboarding is torture. Denying that is totally idiotic. Instead, people should argue that torture is permissible in rare instances. For example, denying that torture is appropriate when you know that a suspect has information about an imminent threat [...]
    But the only way for you to know that he knows that information is to torture him.

    Then, even if he doesn't know the information, he will make something up, which will not only prove that you were correct to torture him, but that the torture was successful. Even if you don't find any WMD's

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    Re: 'Waterboarding is torture,' says Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst, replying to another View Post
    There is no evidence that it's [torture] unrealiable. Quite the contrary.

    Every single prisoner that served at the Hanoi Hilton signed a confession admitting to comitting war crimes against the North Vietnamese, so don't insult our intelligence by saying that torture doesn't work. [...]
    Thank you for an excellent example proving that torture is an excellent tool for eliciting false confessions/information

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    Re: 'Waterboarding is torture,' says Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDemSocialist View Post
    [/COLOR][/FONT]

    Read full article here: 'Waterboarding is torture,' says Obama - CSMonitor.com
    Is this a campaign stunt to gain support? Yes. Do i agree with what he has to say about water boarding? Absolutely. I also believe it is torture..

    Thoughts?
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    [/LEFT]
    Though I'm usually socially conservative, I can see waterboarding as torture. It makes the person feel like they're drowning. Would you say that feeling like you're drowning isn't tortuous/nightmarish?

    I say it is torture.

    HOWEVER, if this is the best option of torture in order to extract info from people who wish to kill as many of us as they can, then so be it. I'll support it to save lives but seriously people, don't say it isn't what it is: torture.

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    Re: 'Waterboarding is torture,' says Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by jambalaya View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley, replying to another View Post
    how do you know waterboarding has worked? al Libi gave misinformation. What the WH gave as examples of success proved not to be what they said they were. So, what makes you say it worked?
    Just google and you'll find claims like this one: 'Waterboarding worked' says former MI5 head - Telegraph

    And this is from a person who is against using the technique. If you don't want to believe it EVER worked that is your perogative.
    Strawman

    Quote Originally Posted by jambalaya, continuting View Post
    [...] If you think you can debunk every claim that vital intelligence was obtained from waterboarding go ahead. But I don't think you can definitively do so.
    To debunk every claim would likely be an impossible task, simply from a logistics perspective (access to classified info), so you challenge is illogical.

    However, considering those subjected to waterboarding have not been charged with a crime, have not had an evidentiary hearing, and in many cases (with detainees in general) have been found to be innocent or of mistaken identity, what percentage of effectiveness would you require of waterboarding in order to support it?

    How many innocent people must be subjected to it before the blind squirrels get lucky and find a nut, thereby justifying in the minds of some?

    And if it works well on detainees, why not use it on citizens? After all, lives could be saved, correct?

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    Re: 'Waterboarding is torture,' says Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by jambalaya View Post
    Just google and you'll find claims like this one: 'Waterboarding worked' says former MI5 head - Telegraph

    And this is from a person who is against using the technique. If you don't want to believe it EVER worked that is your perogative. If you think you can debunk every claim that vital intelligence was obtained from waterboarding go ahead. But I don't think you can definitively do so.
    yes, I've seen the claims. What I notice is that they don't give any examples of where it worked, nothing we can verify. I can give you an example, a verifiable example of where it got us misinformation that we used to our detriment: al Libi.

    If it was a sucessful as this claim you link suggests, why can not one example equal to mine be given? I also wonder why you don't ask them to prove they had success? Why debunk something that hasn't even been supported by actual evidence yet?

    BTW, I don't use the word ever. To be ineffective it does not have to never lead to information. It's that all or nothing thinking that gets us into so much trouble. You have to study things for a period of time, compare it with other methods, and determine the most effective versus the least effective. The litature says torture is the least effective way.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: 'Waterboarding is torture,' says Obama

    Waterboarding IS torture.

    But I would much better prefer they use the ol' bamboo chutes under the fingernails technique.

    It's GREAT to be me. --- "45% liberal/55% conservative"
    Diplomacy is the art of saying 'nice doggy" until you can find a gun.

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    Re: 'Waterboarding is torture,' says Obama

    I would prefer cookies and a promise they'll let me go if I gave them the correct information



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    Re: 'Waterboarding is torture,' says Obama

    Maybe if we didnt have to invade because were all to obese to bike to work we wouldnt have to torture anyone.

    Fatties.

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    Re: 'Waterboarding is torture,' says Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by Wake View Post
    Though I'm usually socially conservative, I can see waterboarding as torture. It makes the person feel like they're drowning. Would you say that feeling like you're drowning isn't tortuous/nightmarish?

    I say it is torture.

    HOWEVER, if this is the best option of torture in order to extract info from people who wish to kill as many of us as they can, then so be it. I'll support it to save lives but seriously people, don't say it isn't what it is: torture.
    Again, there is no evidence it saves lives. Misinformation does not save lives.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: 'Waterboarding is torture,' says Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by Wake View Post
    Though I'm usually socially conservative, I can see waterboarding as torture.
    Conservatism and Liberalism really don't speak to what is or is not a definition of torture.
    I may be wrong.

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