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Thread: 'Waterboarding is torture,' says Obama

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    Re: 'Waterboarding is torture,' says Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by whysoserious View Post
    Well I am sorry that the UN and the US disagree with you.
    The UN thinks global warming is real, too.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: 'Waterboarding is torture,' says Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    The UN thinks global warming is real, too.

    funny how the UN thinks waterboarding is torture but is perfectly fine with its "peacekeepers" committing rape and running underage prostitution rings.

    crap like that doesn't inspire much confidence in the UN's judgement on what is or is not "torture"
    The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter.

    An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.

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    Re: 'Waterboarding is torture,' says Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by OscarB63 View Post
    if waterboarding is clearly torture, then practically every action taken against any criminal anywhere could be considered to be "torture".

    that's the problem. the hand-wringing, bed-wetting crowd has dumbed down the definition of "torture" to such a degree that almost anything qualifies.
    The hand-wringers consider barking cogs, non-climate controlled prison cells and sleep deprivation to be torture.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: 'Waterboarding is torture,' says Obama

    cookies give you more intel then torture. I'll talk if they gave me cookies or give me a option between the two. The again, im a cookie whore.



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    Re: 'Waterboarding is torture,' says Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Again, the evidence says torture is unrealibale and not the best way to get information. becasue of this, why would you link using it to winning or saving lives? Like I have said, there is a lot of mispercptions here.
    There is no evidence that it's unrealiable. Quite the contrary.

    Every single prisoner that served at the Hanoi Hilton signed a confession admitting to comitting war crimes against the North Vietnamese, so don't insult our intelligence by saying that torture doesn't work.

    Even better, actually do some homework in the subject.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: 'Waterboarding is torture,' says Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    There is no evidence that it's unrealiable. Quite the contrary.

    Every single prisoner that served at the Hanoi Hilton signed a confession admitting to comitting war crimes against the North Vietnamese, so don't insult our intelligence by saying that torture doesn't work.
    Even better, actually do some homework in the subject.
    actually, apdst, you should probably take your own advice. torture causes a person to say whatever they think you want to hear, hence the signing of the confessions you mentioned, thanks for posting that! too funny.

    Originally Posted by johnny_rebson:

    These are the same liberals who forgot how Iraq attacked us on 9/11.


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    Re: 'Waterboarding is torture,' says Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by jambalaya View Post
    Once again I ask, what other more effective methods are we not using?
    There are books on it. And they are better than what we can link here, but a few links for you:

    Moreover, Zimbardo told LiveScience that torture is not an effective way to gather intelligence. Compared with police settings, in which detectives build social rapport and often get confessions without physical force, secret interrogation squads can alienate prisoners and elicit unreliable information, he said.

    (For example, a Libyan detainee linked to al-Qaida falsely revealed under torture that there were weapons of mass destruction in Iraq — a key reason for the U.S. invasion of Iraq, Allen said.)

    Study: U.S. Torture Techniques Unethical, Ineffective | LiveScience

    What was done in such cases was "not nice," he says. "But we did not physically abuse them." Rothrock used psychology, the shock of capture and of the unexpected. Once, he let a prisoner see a wounded comrade die. Yet -- as he remembers saying to the "desperate and honorable officers" who wanted him to move faster -- "if I take a Bunsen burner to the guy's genitals, he's going to tell you just about anything," which would be pointless. Rothrock, who is no squishy liberal, says that he doesn't know "any professional intelligence officers of my generation who would think this is a good idea."

    Or listen to Army Col. Stuart Herrington, a military intelligence specialist who conducted interrogations in Vietnam, Panama and Iraq during Desert Storm, and who was sent by the Pentagon in 2003 -- long before Abu Ghraib -- to assess interrogations in Iraq. Aside from its immorality and its illegality, says Herrington, torture is simply "not a good way to get information." In his experience, nine out of 10 people can be persuaded to talk with no "stress methods" at all, let alone cruel and unusual ones. Asked whether that would be true of religiously motivated fanatics, he says that the "batting average" might be lower: "perhaps six out of ten." And if you beat up the remaining four? "They'll just tell you anything to get you to stop."

    Worse, you'll have the other side effects of torture. It "endangers our soldiers on the battlefield by encouraging reciprocity." It does "damage to our country's image" and undermines our credibility in Iraq. That, in the long run, outweighs any theoretical benefit. Herrington's confidential Pentagon report, which he won't discuss but which was leaked to The Post a month ago, goes farther. In that document, he warned that members of an elite military and CIA task force were abusing detainees in Iraq, that their activities could be "making gratuitous enemies" and that prisoner abuse "is counterproductive to the Coalition's efforts to win the cooperation of the Iraqi citizenry." Far from rescuing Americans, in other words, the use of "special methods" might help explain why the war is going so badly.
    The Torture Myth (washingtonpost.com)

    Ali Soufan, a former FBI special agent with considerable experience interrogating al-Qaeda operatives, pointed out in Time that:

    When they are in pain, people will say anything to get the pain to stop. Most of the time, they will lie, make up anything to make you stop hurting them. That means the information you're getting is useless.

    He isn't alone in this assessment – a number of former intelligence people have expressed similar views, and his words are echoed by the US Army Training Manual's section on interrogation, which suggests that:

    …the use of force is a poor technique, as it yields unreliable results, may damage subsequent collection efforts, and can induce the source to say whatever he thinks the interrogator wants to hear.

    The situation is further clouded by the fact that members of the George W. Bush administration made claims for the effectiveness of torture that have later been proven to be untrue. One such claim was that the water-boarding (simulated drowning) of Khalid Shaikh Mohammed produced vital information that allowed them to break up a plot to attack the Liberty Tower in Los Angeles in 2002. Slight problem - in 2002 Shaikh Mohammed was busy evading capture in Pakistan.

    But enough anecdotes, let's look at the science. Why wouldn't torture be effective? Actually there are many reasons. Let's assume that we have the right guy, and that he does in fact know the information that we need. All we need to do is beat it out of him, right?

    Well, no. Suppose I start beating you around the head, demanding that you tell me that Justin Bieber is in fact a supremely talented artist. Eventually, although it may take several days of torture to get there, you'll tell me what I want to hear, but that doesn't make it true.

    Does torture work? | Science | guardian.co.uk

    Larry Johnson, a former CIA officer and a deputy director of the State Department's office of counterterrorism, recently wrote in the Los Angeles Times, "What real CIA field officers know firsthand is that it is better to build a relationship of trust … than to extract quick confessions through tactics such as those used by the Nazis and the Soviets."

    (snip)

    According to CIA sources, Ibn al Shaykh al Libbi, after two weeks of enhanced interrogation, made statements that were designed to tell the interrogators what they wanted to hear. Sources say Al Libbi had been subjected to each of the progressively harsher techniques in turn and finally broke after being water boarded and then left to stand naked in his cold cell overnight where he was doused with cold water at regular intervals.

    His statements became part of the basis for the Bush administration claims that Iraq trained al Qaeda members to use biochemical weapons. Sources tell ABC that it was later established that al Libbi had no knowledge of such training or weapons and fabricated the statements because he was terrified of further harsh treatment.

    "This is the problem with using the waterboard. They get so desperate that they begin telling you what they think you want to hear," one source said.

    Page 2: CIA's Harsh Interrogation Techniques Described - ABC News

    There's no quick fix or silver bullet to avoid good old fashion work.




    Also, go back and read stillballin75's post. He addresses this rather well.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: 'Waterboarding is torture,' says Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    There is no evidence that it's unrealiable. Quite the contrary.

    Every single prisoner that served at the Hanoi Hilton signed a confession admitting to comitting war crimes against the North Vietnamese, so don't insult our intelligence by saying that torture doesn't work.

    Even better, actually do some homework in the subject.
    yes, it is effective at getting confessions. As you point out, even the innocent will confess.

    That, however, is not information gathering. I suggest you not only do some homework, but read and understand what I have said.


    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: 'Waterboarding is torture,' says Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by OscarB63 View Post
    funny how the UN thinks waterboarding is torture but is perfectly fine with its "peacekeepers" committing rape and running underage prostitution rings.

    crap like that doesn't inspire much confidence in the UN's judgement on what is or is not "torture"
    Who has arguing rape is perfectly fine?

    BTW, we signed those agreements with the UN. We, the US, have called waterboarding torture long before Bush was president.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: 'Waterboarding is torture,' says Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by liblady View Post
    actually, apdst, you should probably take your own advice. torture causes a person to say whatever they think you want to hear,
    I'll ask again: Do you think that a hardcore terrorist is going to think to himself, "gee, they've been so nice to me, that I'm going to tell them everything I know"?

    Tell us what you think.

    hence the signing of the confessions you mentioned, thanks for posting that! too funny.
    Right and signing those confessions equates to treason against the United States. Are you saying that you would voluntarily commit treason, or would they have to make you do it?

    I seriously doubt you can relate, but would you endager the lives of the other members of your military unit, without being tortured first? Or, are you going to keep the information to yourself, until they beat it out of you?
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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