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Thread: 'Waterboarding is torture,' says Obama

  1. #131
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    Re: 'Waterboarding is torture,' says Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by CedarBear View Post
    In a round-about way, my point was to refer to the monster wielding the knife that sliced Pearl's throat to the bone.
    If we needed info from that animal, I would certainly agree to pouring water on his face.
    While I have no qualms about that person finding extreme discomfort and death, that's not exactly the main issue here. It's not about whether or not someone deserves such treatment so much as whether it's in our interests to do so.
    The Nazis certainly had no qualms about inflicting extreme cruelty. You should look up their best interrogator and see what methods he used when he literally could have used anything imaginable in luding tortures that would make us all blanch. His name was Hanns Scharff.
    It's really not about whether or not someone deserves torture.
    I may be wrong.

  2. #132
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    Re: 'Waterboarding is torture,' says Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by lpast View Post
    ...you want me to feel bad for terrorists or muslims that have information that could save american civilians lives and our troops...
    No desire for that. Not one whit.
    I may be wrong.

  3. #133
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    Re: 'Waterboarding is torture,' says Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by OscarB63 View Post
    if waterboarding is clearly torture, then practically every action taken against any criminal anywhere could be considered to be "torture".
    This is untrue.

    Quote Originally Posted by OscarB63 View Post
    the hand-wringing, bed-wetting crowd has dumbed down the definition of "torture" to such a degree that almost anything qualifies.
    This is also untrue.

    There're some specific legal definitions that are widely available on the web if you're ever interested.
    I may be wrong.

  4. #134
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    Re: 'Waterboarding is torture,' says Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by lpast View Post
    if they didnt attack us, if they werent carrying out a campaign to this day to kill our troops and attack our homeland...waterboarding wouldnt even be an issue
    If we had enough experienced interrogators, it wouldnt've been an issue either.
    I may be wrong.

  5. #135
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    Re: 'Waterboarding is torture,' says Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by lpast View Post
    Boo...I respect your opinion and most times we agree...but to me torture has to cause harm...waterboarding causes discomfort and it ends precisely when the water is turned off and does no physical harm....I disagree that its torture in the true sense of the word..
    Alot of how I feel and what I believe about it has to do with knowing everyone else would torture our people...and its even legal in most of the world...we need to start putting our people and our troops ahead of others....LIKE EVERYONE ELSE DOES....if they didnt attack us, if they werent carrying out a campaign to this day to kill our troops and attack our homeland...waterboarding wouldnt even be an issue
    It causes harm. A few years ago I read the CIA's view on it. They suggested stated clearly that these techniques, which include waterboarding, sleep deprevation, and what we saw done by us to detainees, last a life time, and are much more devastating than what you describe.

    And as this torture is unrealiable, less effective than other methods, how exactly does using it mean we're putting our people first? in fact, the Military ahs argued us using them hurts our people, making it more liklely when we really do next fight a war against a country, that country can argue there is no need to follwo the rules with Americans as Americans have no concern for rule of law.

    I think many have bought into a hypothethical that is really unrealisitc. We are never likely to have the rigth guy with the right information to stop a tacking time bomb, and torture wouldn't likely get us the right intel if we did. More likely, as we saw with al Libi, we'll have a guy who doesn't know squat, torture him and force him to tell us something, it'll be inaccurate becasue he really didn't know, but we'll use the information as we did with al Libi, and it will lead us down the wrong path.



    BTW, I forgot to mention I also agree and respect your opinions most of the time. More accurately, your opinions most of the time; I respect you all the time. No issue here with me concerning you personally.
    Last edited by Boo Radley; 11-16-11 at 04:43 PM.

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  6. #136
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    Re: 'Waterboarding is torture,' says Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by Simon W. Moon View Post
    This is untrue.

    This is also untrue.

    There're some specific legal definitions that are widely available on the web if you're ever interested.
    and just about every "punishment" ever given to anyone can be finessed to meet those legal definitions.

    Torture is also prohibited under 18 U.S.C. 2340. The definition of torture used is as follows:

    "torture" means an act committed by a person acting under the color of law specifically intended to inflict severe physical or mental pain or suffering (other than pain or suffering incidental to lawful sanctions) upon another person within his custody or physical control;
    oops...looks like you got me . as long as it is lawfully sanctioned, you can inflict all the pain and suffering you want.
    The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter.

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  7. #137
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    Re: 'Waterboarding is torture,' says Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    It causes harm. A few years ago I read the CIA's view on it. They suggested stated clearly that these techniques, which include waterboarding, sleep deprevation, and what we saw done by us to detainees, last a life time, and are much more devastating than what you describe.

    And as this torture is unrealiable, less effective than other methods, how exactly does using it mean we're putting our people first? in fact, the Military ahs argued us using them hurts our people, making it more liklely when we really do next fight a war against a country, that country can argue there is no need to follwo the rules with Americans as Americans have no concern for rule of law.

    I think many have bought into a hypothethical that is really unrealisitc. We are never likely to have the rigth guy with the right information to stop a tacking time bomb, and torture wouldn't likely get us the right intel if we did. More likely, as we saw with al Libi, we'll have a guy who doesn't know squat, torture him and force him to tell us something, it'll be inaccurate becasue he really didn't know, but we'll use the information as we did with al Libi, and it will lead us down the wrong path.



    BTW, I forgot to mention I also agree and respect your opinions most of the time. More accurately, your opinions most of the time; I respect you all the time. No issue here with me concerning you personally.
    Once again I ask, what other more effective methods are we not using?

  8. #138
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    Re: 'Waterboarding is torture,' says Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by jambalaya View Post
    Once again I ask, what other more effective methods are we not using?
    we could say "please" with sugar on it
    The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter.

    An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.

  9. #139
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    Re: 'Waterboarding is torture,' says Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Why not? it's ineffective and immoral. We certainly have demonized other countries who have done it, and we don't want to give excuse for others to do so to our people. By excusing it, we make it acceptable not only for lawless terrorist, but other nations, who can simply point to us if we become involved in some conflict. Rule of law has a place. And protecting the innocnet should be of concern.



    Of course.

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    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

  10. #140
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    Re: 'Waterboarding is torture,' says Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    In a war, winning with as little loss of friendly lives as possible, is the only concern. There are no second place ribbons in war.
    Again, the evidence says torture is unrealibale and not the best way to get information. becasue of this, why would you link using it to winning or saving lives? Like I have said, there is a lot of mispercptions here.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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