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Thread: 'Waterboarding is torture,' says Obama

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    Re: 'Waterboarding is torture,' says Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Not really, not in what we face today.
    Gathering intel will always be a highly crucial aspect of warfare, no matter who you're fighting, or how you're fighting them.


    But, again, the most unrelaible way to gather information it through torture. Torture is much more effective at getting confessions. Even the innocent will confess. If you want information, you use more effective methods.
    I guess that's why it's been practice for the past few thousand years; because it's so ineffective.

    Any information, regardless of the collection technique, has to be varified. That's the difference between, "raw intel", and, "actionable intel".
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: 'Waterboarding is torture,' says Obama

    I guess that's why it's been practice for the past few thousand years; because it's so ineffective.
    Civilizations throughout history have used torture to get the information they want. That doesn't mean that they got accurate information, but it was enough for them. Its not enough for me.

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    Re: 'Waterboarding is torture,' says Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by muciti View Post
    Civilizations throughout history have used torture to get the information they want. That doesn't mean that they got accurate information, but it was enough for them. Its not enough for me.
    How do you suppose we extract information from prisoners? Give them a Coke and hope they tell the truth?
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: 'Waterboarding is torture,' says Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    Gathering intel will always be a highly crucial aspect of warfare, no matter who you're fighting, or how you're fighting them.
    Means less concerning an enemy that can't possibily beat you. But you miss the point. The war on terrorism is much like the wars on poverty, drugs and crime. Very different from being at war with a nation.


    I guess that's why it's been practice for the past few thousand years; because it's so ineffective.

    Any information, regardless of the collection technique, has to be varified. That's the difference between, "raw intel", and, "actionable intel".
    As I said, it's very good for confession. And, yes, many because they didn't really now better likely thought it worked. But because it has been around so long, we have been able to study it. That's why today we KNOW that we're more likely to get misinformation, unreliable information, and that other efforts are more effective. And this is true regardless of the intel being raw or actionable.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: 'Waterboarding is torture,' says Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by muciti View Post
    Civilizations throughout history have used torture to get the information they want. That doesn't mean that they got accurate information, but it was enough for them. Its not enough for me.
    if they don't get accurate or useful information, they would stop doing it.
    The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter.

    An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.

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    Re: 'Waterboarding is torture,' says Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Means less concerning an enemy that can't possibily beat you. But you miss the point. The war on terrorism is much like the wars on poverty, drugs and crime. Very different from being at war with a nation.
    There's no such thing as an enemy that can't be defeated.




    As I said, it's very good for confession. And, yes, many because they didn't really now better likely thought it worked. But because it has been around so long, we have been able to study it. That's why today we KNOW that we're more likely to get misinformation, unreliable information, and that other efforts are more effective. And this is true regardless of the intel being raw or actionable.
    No, that's just a talking point from the, "let's treat them with kid gloves", crowd. The fact is, no matter how you extract information from a prisoner, it has to be varified. A prisoner isn't less likely to lie, if you're nice.

    A harcore terrorists isn't going to say to himself, "they've been so nice to me, I'm going to tell them everything I know".
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: 'Waterboarding is torture,' says Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    How do you suppose we extract information from prisoners? Give them a Coke and hope they tell the truth?
    That's flippent and nonresponsive. The fact is we do regularly get information without torture. In fact, if you follow the events in Iraq, you will find we got a lot more intell once we stopped with the rough stuff. More accurate intel.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: 'Waterboarding is torture,' says Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by OscarB63 View Post
    if they don't get accurate or useful information, they would stop doing it.
    We had stopped.

    If you look at the recent history, you'll notice that because of a lack of trained interrogators they got the SERE guys involved.

    And, what's more, we have stopped using it.
    Last edited by Simon W. Moon; 11-16-11 at 12:10 PM.
    I may be wrong.

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    Re: 'Waterboarding is torture,' says Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    There's no such thing as an enemy that can't be defeated.
    Not really true. The girl scouts will not be the Green Bay Packers in a Football game. GB would have to defeat themselves.



    No, that's just a talking point from the, "let's treat them with kid gloves", crowd. The fact is, no matter how you extract information from a prisoner, it has to be varified. A prisoner isn't less likely to lie, if you're nice.

    A harcore terrorists isn't going to say to himself, "they've been so nice to me, I'm going to tell them everything I know".
    Nonsense. You dismiss it that because you're too lazy to look it up, to read, and to understand the issue. Much is written on torture, many books, including studies by the military and the CIA.

    And no one is talking about being nice. That's another lazy effort on your part. Make fun of the position so as to not have to do the work of understadning it and debating it.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: 'Waterboarding is torture,' says Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by Simon W. Moon View Post
    And, what's more, we have stopped using it.
    then why all the crying about it?
    The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter.

    An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.

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