• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

NBA Lockout: NBPA Rejects Deal, Announces It Will File For Decertification

muciti said:
Let the players disband, decertify, and leave. The NBA is one league that needs to start over.
Click to expand...

I wonder if this is what they really want.

Start over with an overhauled version of the NBA. This league definitely needs a dramatic culture change. What LeBron did, orchestrating the Heat the way he did, followed by Carmelo doing the same thing in New York, has left a really sour taste in both the owners and fans mouths.

Players in the NFL are not bigger than the league. Guys like Peyton Manning miss a season, and the league doesn't skip a beat.

I think that's what many NBA owners want their league to be, too.
 
Henrin said:
They are forced to bargain in exactly the way the union wants. If that wasn't true it wouldn't matter what kind of deal they put on the table. It does though, doesn't it? You even admitted it. The deal was **** according to you, for what I assume is nothing more than they got less money then before. Is it a bad deal when the owners get less money? No. Why would it be? Oh I don't know, because they own everything. It would piss me off enough if they were just forced to bargain(they are) but they also have to give in to what the union wants and that just throws me off the deep end of pissed. Freedom just goes right out the window so hard only because they own the business and that is it. Its bull****.

And don't tell I don't understand the economics. I do. The deal they made last time bit them in the ass and they needed to get some money back from the unions, but the entire time the players were playing stupid. At first it all was a lie, and then it was kind of a lie, and now they just don't want to talk anymore. Yeah, they showed a real ability to bargain in good faith. Bull****.
Click to expand...

The problem with your logic is that there IS NO UNION. It decertified, and the players are going to court on antitrust laws.
 
danarhea said:
The problem with your logic is that there IS NO UNION. It decertified, and the players are going to court on antitrust laws.
Click to expand...

Actually, the problem with Henrin's logic is that he's simply wrong and has turned the whole situation on its head. Throughout all of these negotations, it's the players who have had to negotiate on the owners' terms, but Henrin is somehow deluded into thinking that it's the other way around.
 
j-mac said:
At this point I don't really care who is being unreasonable, and who isn't...I think they both are, and ****ting all over the people that make their sport possible in the first place.

I tell ya, I remember growing up going to see the Lions, Tigers, and Pistons for less than $20 buck tickets. Now if I want to take my son to the game it is going to cost a minimum of $150, possibly $200 to see a game. That's BS! They just are not worth that much of MY hard earned labor.

Growing up I went to the same Junior High School as Magic Johnson, and saw how in the 8th grade the NBA scouts would take him out of class and groom him. These players, many of them hit the lottery, and because of unions, and the nature of collective bargaining who suffers? We do. I think I am going to stick to watching golf. At least golfers aren't bargaining for ever more ticket pricing.

j-mac
Click to expand...

The sad thing is seeing some of the players from the days when they got paid at about the rate of a used car salesman. Many of them can barely walk as a result their injuries and they have little or nothing to show for it. Fortunately for them the players union negotiated a pension program that benefits older players.
 
I blame the owners for this. The owners are at fault for giving these ridiculous contracts. Some of the players even acknowledge there overpaid, but its not like the asked for these ridiculous deals. The owners just gave it to them. Who here thought that joe johnson was going to be offered a max? He would be crazy to turn that down.
 
muciti said:
Maybe the NBA players should look at how well the NFL players did with decertifying and suing based on antitrust laws.
Click to expand...

Well there were things that worked for the NFL, but I think a lot of that came from the fact that both sides knew they needed a season. Even football would be hard pressed to rebound from a complete no season. Basketball is even worse off than that, it would have a HELL of a time trying to come back from no season. They'll find that people will move on. In general, I am not a fan of basketball and I would like to see no season. I'd rather they put on hockey which actually has rules and tries to enforce them evenly than some sports entertainment that the NBA had become. The NBA is mistaken if they think they can survive well enough after a long strike/lock out.
 
Erod said:
The players are idiots. They don't realize that the owners hold every card in this.

The owners, at least 22 of them, are gleeful that no NBA season will be played. They will lose far less money by not playing at all. The is nothing like the NFL situation, where billions were at stake for both sides.

NBA television ratings are pathetic, even a Finals like this year when intrigue was pretty high. The league is simply not that popular, and it's viewed by many as a just a band of overhyped, pompous thugs, even by professional athlete standards.

Simply put, most of the owners are giddy, and they are determined to get this thing to a money-making structure before a ball is ever bounced in an NBA game ever again.
Click to expand...

The owners have no league without the players. The owners have no media draw without the players. The owners have no revenue without the players.
 
Also as a bulls fan im upset mj sold out. He knows what its like the be a player.
 
Ikari said:
Come on, basketball doesn't even follow its own rules. Penalties are called depending on your popularity, traveling no longer exists, the refs were betting on the games and wasn't one in league with the mafia? It's not a sport, it's sport entertainment; and we already have wrestling.
Click to expand...

That happens in football to. Superbowl 40 was setup. The seahawks got robbed.
 
99percenter said:
Also as a bulls fan im upset mj sold out. He knows what its like the be a player.
Click to expand...

But he is on the other side of the fence now. It always looks different on the other side.
 
99percenter said:
I blame the owners for this. The owners are at fault for giving these ridiculous contracts. Some of the players even acknowledge there overpaid, but its not like the asked for these ridiculous deals. The owners just gave it to them. Who here thought that joe johnson was going to be offered a max? He would be crazy to turn that down.
Click to expand...

Your comment is so off base that I actually have to resort to defending the owners on this one.

1) Yes, some players are overpaid. Many are not.

2) The reason players like Joe Johnson are overpaid is not exactly the owners fault. It has to do with how free agency is structured under the most current CBA. For a team like Atlanta, they face two primary options when a player like Joe Johnson reaches free agency. They can either let him go to another team and completely be screwed, or they can overpay him somewhat. Giving Joe Johnson a max contract is essentially the lesser of two evils.
 
Last edited:
99percenter said:
That happens in football to. Superbowl 40 was setup. The seahawks got robbed.
Click to expand...

In total agreement. The refs decided that game giving the Steelers at least one TD they should not have and denying the Seahawks their own. Here in the Detroit area, the buzz all week before the bowl was that the league wanted Pitt to win because of Bettis.
 
haymarket said:
In total agreement. The refs decided that game giving the Steelers at least one TD they should not have and denying the Seahawks their own. Here in the Detroit area, the buzz all week before the bowl was that the league wanted Pitt to win because of Bettis.
Click to expand...

And in the Chicago/NO NFC championship game, everyone wanted NO to win. But the Bears did instead.

I think there are plenty of questionable calls to be made. Is it some conspiracy to preferentially select a winner through referring? I'm not 100% sure I'd buy into that without a bit more evidence/measurement.
 
from the wikipedia article on SP40

On August 6, 2010, while visiting the Seahawks' preseason training camp for an annual rules interpretation session with the Seattle media, Leavy brought up Super Bowl XL without being asked, and admitted to having blown calls:[19]
“ It was a tough thing for me. I kicked two calls in the fourth quarter and I impacted the game, and as an official you never want to do that. It left me with a lot of sleepless nights, and I think about it constantly. I'll go to my grave wishing that I'd been better ... I know that I did my best at that time, but it wasn't good enough ... When we make mistakes, you got to step up and own them. It's something that all officials have to deal with, but unfortunately when you have to deal with it in the Super Bowl it's difficult.[20]
Click to expand...

Heck, even the Pittsburgh quarterback admits that he never got over the goal line on a called TD. It was robbery and the fix was in and it takes away from the credibility of every game since.
 
StillBallin75 said:
Your comment is so off base that I actually have to resort to defending the owners on this one.

1) Yes, some players are overpaid. Many are not.

2) The reason players like Joe Johnson are overpaid are not exactly the owners fault. It has to do with how free agency is structured under the most current CBA. For a team like Atlanta, they face two primary options when a player like Joe Johnson reaches free agency. They can either let him go to another team and completely be screwed, or they can overpay him somewhat. Giving Joe Johnson a max contract is essentially the lesser of two evils.
Click to expand...

Actually letting him go was a the lesser of two evils. How are they screwed if they let him go? Joe johnson is not exactly lebron james. Now they are trying to getting rid of him. They would probably let him go for expirings. Isn't it better to not sign him in the 1st place.
 
haymarket said:
from the wikipedia article on SP40



Heck, even the Pittsburgh quarterback admits that he never got over the goal line on a called TD. It was robbery and the fix was in and it takes away from the credibility of every game since.
Click to expand...

What about that phantom holding call in the endzone that turned a TD in to a fg. That was just a robbery.
 
Henrin said:
They are forced to bargain in exactly the way the union wants. If that wasn't true it wouldn't matter what kind of deal they put on the table. It does though, doesn't it? You even admitted it. The deal was **** according to you, for what I assume is nothing more than they got less money then before. Is it a bad deal when the owners get less money? No. Why would it be? Oh I don't know, because they own everything. It would piss me off enough if they were just forced to bargain(they are) but they also have to give in to what the union wants and that just throws me off the deep end of pissed. Freedom just goes right out the window so hard only because they own the business and that is it. Its bull****.

And don't tell I don't understand the economics. I do. The deal they made last time bit them in the ass and they needed to get some money back from the unions, but the entire time the players were playing stupid. At first it all was a lie, and then it was kind of a lie, and now they just don't want to talk anymore. Yeah, they showed a real ability to bargain in good faith. Bull****.
Click to expand...
Don't you understand, this is the free market in play?
 
on a side not. I'm a bulls fan if joe johnson is a casualty of amnesty i wish the bulls would pick him up. I think rose, johnson, deng, boozern, noah = championship.
 
99percenter said:
Actually letting him go was a the lesser of two evils. How are they screwed if they let him go? Joe johnson is not exactly lebron james. Now they are trying to getting rid of him. They would probably let him go for expirings. Isn't it better to not sign him in the 1st place.
Click to expand...

Joe Johnson is the greatest impact player on that team, both in terms of basketball value and the revenue he brings in. He may not be a superstar, but he is the franchise player. Now perhaps this isn't still the case, but when Johnson became a free agent, letting him walk was seen as unacceptable because plenty of other teams wanted to lure him away from Atlanta. Similar situation with several of the players in Memphis. When what you have in free agency is essentially an auction-type system, there's many folks out there who are going to be overpaid. That is why the owners are trying to negotiate on these issues. Besides, the primary fight over the CBA isn't even over free agency or max contracts. It's about the BRI split.

Free agency is a systems issue - completely secondary to the primary fight over the BRI.
 
99percenter said:
on a side not. I'm a bulls fan if joe johnson is a casualty of amnesty i wish the bulls would pick him up. I think rose, johnson, deng, boozern, noah = championship.
Click to expand...

That'd be a major salary hit. There are plenty of young two-guards in this league who can potentially fit quite nicely next to rose and don't command the salary that Johnson does. But I won't disagree that you may potentially have a championship-caliber lineup there.
 
Ikari said:
Let us hope this marks the end of the NBA. Put the NHL on TV more!
Click to expand...

Oh God no. If there is one thing that is more boring to watch on TV than a basketball game, its definitely a hockey game. Hockey and B ball are great if you're in the stands, but on TV, I mine as well be watching grass grow.

I like watching the only true sport on TV, the NFL! Go Saints!!! 2009-2010 World Champions!
 
StillBallin75 said:
Your comment is so off base that I actually have to resort to defending the owners on this one.

1) Yes, some players are overpaid. Many are not.

2) The reason players like Joe Johnson are overpaid is not exactly the owners fault. It has to do with how free agency is structured under the most current CBA. For a team like Atlanta, they face two primary options when a player like Joe Johnson reaches free agency. They can either let him go to another team and completely be screwed, or they can overpay him somewhat. Giving Joe Johnson a max contract is essentially the lesser of two evils.
Click to expand...

I agree that only some players are overpaid. I think there are some players that deserve all they get but the ones that are overpaid have nothing to feel sorry about. I don't buy this owners need to police themselves from themselves crap argument.
 
StillBallin75 said:
Joe Johnson is the greatest impact player on that team, both in terms of basketball value and the revenue he brings in. He may not be a superstar, but he is the franchise player. Now perhaps this isn't still the case, but when Johnson became a free agent, letting him walk was seen as unacceptable because plenty of other teams wanted to lure him away from Atlanta. Similar situation with several of the players in Memphis. When what you have in free agency is essentially an auction-type system, there's many folks out there who are going to be overpaid. That is why the owners are trying to negotiate on these issues. Besides, the primary fight over the CBA isn't even over free agency or max contracts. It's about the BRI split.

Free agency is a systems issue - completely secondary to the primary fight over the BRI.
Click to expand...

I also believe the players deserve a majority of the BRI. I think if you've ran a business you would know the owners have it good when it comes to labor costs.
 
99percenter said:
I agree that only some players are overpaid. I think there are some players that deserve all they get but the ones that are overpaid have nothing to feel sorry about.
Click to expand...

Agreed. But as I pointed out earlier, this is more about how the players split the pie among themselves, rather than how the owners and the players split the pie.

I don't buy this owners need to police themselves from themselves crap argument.
Click to expand...

Agreed. I think to a large extent this is what's at work during these negotiations over the BRI split. But once again, this has little to do with free agency/max contracts when you look at the whole picture. The primary fight is over the BRI split.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom