• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Supreme Court to Hear Challenge to Obama Health Care Law

conservativeguy said:
It's an outlandish lie to claim this law is not a massive intrusion of the federal government into our lives. Every person that had a health plan they enjoyed will have them changed or canceled.
Click to expand...

I think you need a cite for that. :lol:

Every breathing person in the US will now be forced to buy an insurance plan or be fined.
Click to expand...

That's a baldfaced lie. There is no mandate for low-income folks. For everyone else there is already a mandate. Those of us who are responsible and have insurance are mandated to pay for the health insurance of those who can afford it but choose to be free riders on our backs.

Every person in the country will now be impacted by an unelected group of bureaucrats that will serve on a new federal Death Panel.
Click to expand...

You make me laugh. :2rofll:
 
Keridan said:
Well, constitutionality is still to be determined, I grant that. Incentive is certainly a misleading term here, however. It's not a gift if you start with the penalty in higher taxes and simply get that removed. It is a punishment if you don't buy a private product. That's fascism, which is not okay in my book.
Click to expand...

That is how all tax incentives work, and I acknowledge that you don't like them.

As the victim of two heart attacks, I have some knowledge of insurance. My first heart attack came when I was 26 and had no insurance. I was healthy (as in worked out daily healthy). I had no insurance. What I did have was the power to negotiate and the kindness of strangers. A privately funded charity helped with a portion of the bills. On the rest, I negotiated with the hospital, surgeons, and physicians. I paid ~15% of the bills and everyone came out in the positive. Insurance would have been better, but I did find another option.
Click to expand...

Wow, that's rough. But you are being way too kind to yourself when you claim that "everyone came out in the positive." You were foolish not to have insurance and lucky that doctors and hospitals chose to treat you without it. In the end they LOST MONEY on your care, making only 15 cents on the dollar. Did that come out of their pockets? Hell no. It came out of everyone's pocket who wasn't irresponsible and did have health insurance, because doctors and hospitals specifically raise rates to accommodate indigent care.
 
AdamT said:
That is how all tax incentives work, and I acknowledge that you don't like them.
Click to expand...

Where is my penalty for not buying a house this year? I don't like incentives for many reasons. That much is true. This is just hiding a penalty. I acknowledge this is semantics, but it still comes down to forcing a purchase of a private product.

AdamT said:
Wow, that's rough. But you are being way too kind to yourself when you claim that "everyone came out in the positive." You were foolish not to have insurance and lucky that doctors and hospitals chose to treat you without it. In the end they LOST MONEY on your care, making only 15 cents on the dollar. Did that come out of their pockets? Hell no. It came out of everyone's pocket who wasn't irresponsible and did have health insurance, because doctors and hospitals specifically raise rates to accommodate indigent care.
Click to expand...

I stated that what came out of my pocket was ~15%. The charity wasn't a drop in the bucket and added considerably to that percentage. I generally avoid using anecdotal evidence, but I did start this one, so I will expound a little bit.

I had several discussions with the billing department at the time. The whole process took a long time and much talk. Basically, they admitted that in the case of heart attacks like mine (where the procedure requires a catheter, as opposed to open heart surgery and extensive life support during the process) the actual cost of services rendered was ~20%. They made that and more between myself and the charity. The rest falls under what every company has. It's called costs of doing business.

Subsequently, I also worked as a hospital administrator for a few years. I could go on for several pages about the things you learn being in meetings where administrators dictate to physicians and nurses about how to extort more money. I could also go on for pages about how much of those discussions were dictated solely and trying to recoup money lost due to medicare and medicaid legislation. It's the stuff that doesn't make the news because it has to do with boring topics or ones requiring degrees to understand. It also involves considerable understanding of the indirect costs.

One reason health care is so expensive is because government involvement means they make less on anyone using that service. There is a big reason so many offices refuse medicare patients. They lose too much money when the government steps in.

These are the ones I'm supposed to trust to run an even grander scale change?

I wish I'd had insurance. I would even donate to a program to educate folks on the danger of not having insurance. I would advocate better advertising from insurance companies in this regard if they weren't guaranteed sales through companies.
 
So, what do you think will happen to the health insurance companies should this thing pass?
 
MrVicchio said:
Car insurance?

It's not to protect you, it's to protect those you HARM driving your car irresponsibly.
Click to expand...

Not uninsured/underinsured and also not liability limits are in essence protecting you from lawsuit (if your limits are high enough).
 
Keridan said:
Where is my penalty for not buying a house this year? I don't like incentives for many reasons. That much is true. This is just hiding a penalty. I acknowledge this is semantics, but it still comes down to forcing a purchase of a private product.



I stated that what came out of my pocket was ~15%. The charity wasn't a drop in the bucket and added considerably to that percentage. I generally avoid using anecdotal evidence, but I did start this one, so I will expound a little bit.

I had several discussions with the billing department at the time. The whole process took a long time and much talk. Basically, they admitted that in the case of heart attacks like mine (where the procedure requires a catheter, as opposed to open heart surgery and extensive life support during the process) the actual cost of services rendered was ~20%. They made that and more between myself and the charity. The rest falls under what every company has. It's called costs of doing business.

Subsequently, I also worked as a hospital administrator for a few years. I could go on for several pages about the things you learn being in meetings where administrators dictate to physicians and nurses about how to extort more money. I could also go on for pages about how much of those discussions were dictated solely and trying to recoup money lost due to medicare and medicaid legislation. It's the stuff that doesn't make the news because it has to do with boring topics or ones requiring degrees to understand. It also involves considerable understanding of the indirect costs.

One reason health care is so expensive is because government involvement means they make less on anyone using that service. There is a big reason so many offices refuse medicare patients. They lose too much money when the government steps in.

These are the ones I'm supposed to trust to run an even grander scale change?

I wish I'd had insurance. I would even donate to a program to educate folks on the danger of not having insurance. I would advocate better advertising from insurance companies in this regard if they weren't guaranteed sales through companies.
Click to expand...

So basically what you're saying is that the hospital had an 80% mark up on your heart surgery ... but it's the government's fault that hospitals charge so much? I don't think so. The reason our medical expenses are higher than everyone else's is that we pay doctors a lot more, we pay hospitals more, we pay drug companies more, and insurance companies take a cut off the top. That's why government run systems cost half as much.
 
I hope that the Supreme Court strikes down the REPUBLICAN idea of mandating everyone to purchase insurance. That REPUBLICAN idea was only made part of the eventual healthcare law as an alternative to the public option which Republicans and the bluedogs would not support. That is the worst part of the healthcare law that we got. If that part is stricken down, then we can begin to work on fixing the watered down healthcare law that we got as a result of the Republicans. We need a single-payer system in this country, however beginning with a public option is the first step...and it would be a hell of a lot better than the illogical Republican mandate of requiring everyone to purchase insurance.
 
danarhea said:
Here is the irony of Obamacare. It was crafted from what Mitt Romney did in Massachusetts, and Mitt Romney has the lead among Republicans as the man to replace Obama. This is what can be called one of those WTF moments of American History. LOL.
Click to expand...

actually some would correctly note that such a system is a power reserved to the several states and not the federal government
 
disneydude said:
I hope that the Supreme Court strikes down the REPUBLICAN idea of mandating everyone to purchase insurance. That REPUBLICAN idea was only made part of the eventual healthcare law as an alternative to the public option which Republicans and the bluedogs would not support. That is the worst part of the healthcare law that we got. If that part is stricken down, then we can begin to work on fixing the watered down healthcare law that we got as a result of the Republicans. We need a single-payer system in this country, however beginning with a public option is the first step...and it would be a hell of a lot better than the illogical Republican mandate of requiring everyone to purchase insurance.
Click to expand...

why should I have to pay for YOUR healthcare?
 
I'll ask this again....what do you folks think is going to happen to health insurance stocks, if this thing actually passes?
 
TurtleDude said:
good question. I should not have to do this now or in the future
Click to expand...

No way around it without denying emergency care, life saving care to those who can't pay.
 
Boo Radley said:
No way around it without denying emergency care, life saving care to those who can't pay.
Click to expand...

the question still stands-why should some be forced to work to pay for the health care of someone else
 
TurtleDude said:
the question still stands-why should some be forced to work to pay for the health care of someone else
Click to expand...

I'm trying to say should is the wrong word. FACT: You are and will as long as we have to treat people who can't pay. Whine, stomp your feet, ask any questions you want. The fact will be that you will pay for someone else.
 
AdamT said:
So basically what you're saying is that the hospital had an 80% mark up on your heart surgery ... but it's the government's fault that hospitals charge so much? I don't think so. The reason our medical expenses are higher than everyone else's is that we pay doctors a lot more, we pay hospitals more, we pay drug companies more, and insurance companies take a cut off the top. That's why government run systems cost half as much.
Click to expand...

So basically you are saying that doctors and health companies make too much money so our only options are socialism or facism? I don't think so.

See what I did there? I took your tactic of way oversimplifying a point so it sounds crazy, ignores points, and becomes easier to argue.

I could also say that you want to blame uninsured sick people in one breath and greedy corporations in the next. I could point out several ways and back them up why government is largely responsible for increased pricing, but you aren't interested in actual debate. You have shown that in your provocative replies. I could only expect snide responses and poorly veiled anger in response.

disneydude said:
I hope that the Supreme Court strikes down the REPUBLICAN idea of mandating everyone to purchase insurance. That REPUBLICAN idea was only made part of the eventual healthcare law as an alternative to the public option which Republicans and the bluedogs would not support. That is the worst part of the healthcare law that we got. If that part is stricken down, then we can begin to work on fixing the watered down healthcare law that we got as a result of the Republicans. We need a single-payer system in this country, however beginning with a public option is the first step...and it would be a hell of a lot better than the illogical Republican mandate of requiring everyone to purchase insurance.
Click to expand...

I hope they strike it down, too. But there is a reason they gave up quickly on single-payer. I don't think you'd see that result as quickly as you hope. Also, even setting aside the points against socialized medicine, we aren't ready for an abrupt transition. If it were to pass, it would take at least a decade to move without destroying our current medical system.

KevinKohler said:
I'll ask this again....what do you folks think is going to happen to health insurance stocks, if this thing actually passes?
Click to expand...

The reason you didn't get an immediate response is that it's honestly hard to say. Seeing as how they are promised some 30 million new customers and about 25 million of those were voluntarily without insurance, they will probably do quite well for themselves. They will take a hit in the inability to evaluate risk and being forced to take on very sick people, but they will make that up in volume and overall cost of their product.

Likely they will make tons of money.
 
Last edited:
KevinKohler said:
I'll ask this again....what do you folks think is going to happen to health insurance stocks, if this thing actually passes?
Click to expand...

Check out what United Healthcare,Humana,Coventry make selling Medicare Advantage plans and get back to me.
 
TurtleDude said:
why should I have to pay for YOUR healthcare?
Click to expand...
Why should I have to pay for your roads and bridges?

Why should I have to pay for your national security?

Why should I have to pay for anyone's police/fire protection?

Why should I have to pay for anyone's public education?


See how easy it is to play your game?
 
AdamT said:
You say that as if it has never been tried. Problem is, virtually every other industrialized country has some form of nationalized health care, and they generally provide the same level of care for half the cost.
Click to expand...


How many of those wonderful utopias have the population of the US?

NEXT!!!


J-mac
 
disneydude said:
Why should I have to pay for your roads and bridges?

Why should I have to pay for your national security?

Why should I have to pay for anyone's police/fire protection?

Why should I have to pay for anyone's public education?


See how easy it is to play your game?
Click to expand...

My guess is that you don't. My guess is that you garner a refund at tax time, making you part of the recipiant class.


J-mac
 
 
TurtleDude said:
the question still stands-why should some be forced to work to pay for the health care of someone else
Click to expand...


1. because we live in a society that doesn't let people die in the street because they can't afford lifesaving care.

2. because if we did live in a society where being poor meant no lifesaving care, crime would skyrocket. you'd be surprised what people would do to save their kids. there would be intense social disorder.

it's in the interest of everyone that we find a system which is better than the haphazard employment-based system that is letting a lot of people slip through the cracks. we all pay more because many can't afford real health insurance.
 
j-mac said:
My guess is that you don't. My guess is that you garner a refund at tax time, making you part of the recipiant class.


J-mac
Click to expand...

No unlike you, I don't bitch and moan about paying taxes. I consider the ability to pay back into a country that has given me the opportunities that it has a privilege and part of the costs of living in this great country. I don't buy into the me me me mentality that believes that I should be able to keep everything to myself, because I recognize that without the benefits that this country has provided me, I wouldn't have what I do.
 
j-mac said:
My guess is that you don't. My guess is that you garner a refund at tax time, making you part of the recipiant class.


J-mac
Click to expand...

Oops, responded to wrong post....
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom