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Supreme Court to Hear Challenge to Obama Health Care Law

He can't. Socialized medicine appeals to those who want to have others care for their lives.


Sure he can and he doesn't have to go out of the United States of America to do it.Its called VHA also known as he Veterans Health Administration.According to a CBO report, between 1999 and 2005, cost fell by 29.0 percent. The main reason for this is they can purchase pharmaceutical products at prices that are less than those available to nearly any other purchaser which accounts for 13.5 percent of VA’s cost.

To head off any bull**** about the quality of VA care I’ll cite these words by past Secretary of Veterans Affairs, James Nicholson statement in a speech he made on July 2007, "We lead private and Government health care providers in almost every measure and our state-of-the-art quality care arcs from the research lab to a patient’s bedside."


Then he stated that most health insurance plans pay providers on the basis of the number of services rendered rather than the quality of the care delivered. its called quality of care in the VA, not how many test you can run. Then of course with for profit insurance companies you have that return on investment thingee that the VA doesn’t have to deal with.:2wave:
 
Car insurance.

That's done by the states, not the Federal government, but IMHO, that is wrong too. It's extortion. The Mafia was never as powerful as the insurance companies are today.
 
It became more expensive when people started abusing it. Health Ins originally was a more catastrophic coverage kind of thing where routine visits were not covered. This helped keep pricing down for routine care. Now people use their coverage for the sniffles. It is actually a very clear problem that highlights what would be wrong with making HC accessible to the point you want it to be.


j-mac

I won't argue that there is no problem with people thinking they need more than they do, but the real increase came with technology. And in the market place, I make more money if I sell more, so it emcourages me to give more tests, do treatments that are long term rather than outright cures, and to think in terms of profit and not the best for the patient, especially when the patient has limited knowledge and feels the need to trust me. And the more urgent the situation, the more control the provider has. You don't shop around when a life is in the balance.
 
The difference is that car insurance is based on the privilege of driving, not simply being a breathing citizen of the US.

That would be true if you could assure you would never get hurt and that you could always pay for such an event. Few to none have the ability to claim they will never be seriosuly injuried, become seiously ill, or always be able to pay for anything that happens. It is this inability to assure we won't have to pay for you later is what makes the law comparable to car insurance. The one who drives can't assure there will never be an accident, and the person who lives cannot assure they will be need healthcare, and both who are unisured run the risk of having others pay for their mistake.
 
The difference is that car insurance is based on the privilege of driving, not simply being a breathing citizen of the US.

As long as you can assure the public you will never be a financial burden on them, there should be an exemption to allow anyone to post a financial bond rather than purchase health care insurance, imho.


This would be the proverbial "Put your money where your mouth is"...:)
 
That's done by the states, not the Federal government, but IMHO, that is wrong too. It's extortion. The Mafia was never as powerful as the insurance companies are today.

I guess the Founding Fathers were a bunch of mafiosi!

"In fact the founding fathers adopted the first "individual mandate" back in 1792. It required individuals to outfit themselves with guns and ammunition, even if they had to buy those items from private sellers.

The mandate was included in a series of laws known as the Militia Acts. Early Americans were were fearful of a standing army so they relied on ordinary citizens organized into state militias to fight off Natives and invading armies. States, however, couldn't always be counted on to send their militias to help out other states. Comity was an unreliable basis for national security. And ordinary citizens couldn't always be relied upon to have the equipment they would need to be an effective fighting force.

Congress sought to rectify these problems by passing federal legislation. In the first Militia Act, Congress gave the President authority to call out the militias and imposed penalties on any militiaman who refused to obey orders. In the second Militia Act, Congress included an individual mandate: all free, able-bodied male citizens between the ages of 18 and 45 "shall, within six months... provide himself with a good musket or firelock" or "a good rifle." All men of age were also ordered to equip themselves with ammunition and "a knapsack" to carry supplies. Many citizens already had these items. Those who didn't had to go out and buy them, like it or not, presumably from a private seller."

Adam Winkler: The Founding Fathers' "Individual Mandate"
 
That's done by the states, not the Federal government, but IMHO, that is wrong too. It's extortion. The Mafia was never as powerful as the insurance companies are today.

I agree with the sentiment that, but I will add that the mafia was never as powerful as malpractice attorneys are today either.

What doctor's pay for malpractice insurance is stupifying.
 
I agree with the sentiment that, but I will add that the mafia was never as powerful as malpractice attorneys are today either.

What doctor's pay for malpractice insurance is stupifying.

More a problem in certain specialities than it is all doctors.

That said, this is a minor problem compared to other issues, as it relates to the cost of health care. I believe some states have addressed this issue, and have not seen any significant change in cost.
 
The federal government doesn't require ANYONE to purchase car insurance. States require people WHO OWN AND OPERATE AUTOMOBILES to purchase it. if you don't, you don't need to purchase it. Try again.

As I've mentioned before, this is functionally NO DIFFERENT than any other tax incentive. If you purchase a home then you can receive a tax deduction for your mortgage interest. Does that force everyone in the country to own a home? No. It just means that if you don't own a home then you are subsidizing those who do. Same with the health insurance "mandate". You aren't actually REQUIRED to buy health insurance. You are simply required to subsidize those who do if you don't.

Obviously the purpose of this is to eliminate the free rider problem, i.e., to give people an incentive to take *personal responsibility* for their health care coverage. A very conservative concept, and no surprise as it was originally conceived by Republicans.
 
As I've mentioned before, this is functionally NO DIFFERENT than any other tax incentive. If you purchase a home then you can receive a tax deduction for your mortgage interest. Does that force everyone in the country to own a home? No. It just means that if you don't own a home then you are subsidizing those who do. Same with the health insurance "mandate". You aren't actually REQUIRED to buy health insurance. You are simply required to subsidize those who do if you don't.

Obviously the purpose of this is to eliminate the free rider problem, i.e., to give people an incentive to take *personal responsibility* for their health care coverage. A very conservative concept, and no surprise as it was originally conceived by Republicans.

I do actually see your point, but the method is not acceptable. Forcing purchase of private insurance or paying a fine to simply be alive is a problem. Especially if insurance companies aren't allowed to take risk into the equation (pre-existing conditions). That means the healthy 18 year old college student pays the same as the obese, diabetic who quit smoking a year ago only because of his lung cancer.

IMO, it's crazy for the government to require purchase of a private company item. If you aren't going single payer, you can't do a direct penalty. If you are going to subsidize, do it like you do farms and other crap. Find a way to pay with existing taxes. It would be less likely to pass this way because ppl would see the whole price tag.

I'm all for removing employer based insurance. I know that sounds weird coming from a libertarian, but it would make insurance less of a crazy outlier to free market practices. Cost/demand could do some more balancing.

I don't have time to go into great detail on these points, but maybe I can give more information when my idea is answered/rebutted.
 
How do you know that they are going to "strike down his law"?

Because the government has no authority to tell any citizen what they "have to buy". They can suggest, they can strongly suggest, but they have no authority from the Constitution to force us to buy anything. And don't come back with taxes...we aren't buying them, we're paying them...at least some of us do. I'm not sure about liberals because they want everyone else to do for them what they are capable of doing for themselves.
 
I do actually see your point, but the method is not acceptable. Forcing purchase of private insurance or paying a fine to simply be alive is a problem. Especially if insurance companies aren't allowed to take risk into the equation (pre-existing conditions). That means the healthy 18 year old college student pays the same as the obese, diabetic who quit smoking a year ago only because of his lung cancer.

IMO, it's crazy for the government to require purchase of a private company item. If you aren't going single payer, you can't do a direct penalty. If you are going to subsidize, do it like you do farms and other crap. Find a way to pay with existing taxes. It would be less likely to pass this way because ppl would see the whole price tag.

I'm all for removing employer based insurance. I know that sounds weird coming from a libertarian, but it would make insurance less of a crazy outlier to free market practices. Cost/demand could do some more balancing.

I don't have time to go into great detail on these points, but maybe I can give more information when my idea is answered/rebutted.

Hmm, I don't think you really do see my point, which is that this is really about semantics. It's nothing new, radical, or different. What they should have done instead of calling it a mandate and going with the tax penalty was to implement a special health insurance tax in the amount of the current penalty, which would be 100% deductible if you purchased qualifying insurance. No one would argue that that is unconstitutional and it would accomplish exactly the same thing. I'm sure they opted not to go that way because it would have run afoul of the tax pledges that so many Republicans have signed.

I don't have any great fondness for employer-provided coverage either. If we can't have single payer then there should be an insurance exchange that applies to everyone. There should also be a public option. I do not think that people who can afford basic insurance should be allowed to ride free because their failure to purchase insurance drives up insurance costs for you and me. See, that's a problem with a strict libertarian view.

You're appalled at the idea of the government forcing someone to do something, but if the government doesn't act, you are still forced to do something. In this case you are forced to subsidize the health care of people who could afford to pay for it themselves. So at the end of the day we have a choice between two alternatives. Either the government pressures people who can afford insurance to buy insurance, or you and I pay for the health care of people who could afford to buy it themselves. I'll take the former.
 
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Read up, ladies. Now, I know you think this is just the "liberal media", but instead let's grow a bit of brain and try to actually read something. Rush Limbaugh and Fox News aren't going to get this one right, let's be honest.

NY Times: The Broccoli Test
The mandate is clearly authorized by the “necessary and proper clause,” which the Supreme Court has held gives Congress the power to pass any law that is “rationally related” to the execution of some constitutional power. For example, although the Constitution nowhere gives Congress the power to criminalize interfering with the mail, Congress can do so under the necessary and proper clause because it is rationally related to the constitutional power to establish post offices.
 
sure they do.

they can require you to buy car-insurance if you own a car.

and the Militia Act of 1792 required Americans to buy a gun.

You only have to buy car insurance if you register and drive said car on public motorways. I've owned a race car or two that have ONLY been driven on tracks, with 0 insurance...legally. Also, that is a STATE mandate, not a FEDERAL one. Big difference, there.

And by the by, this isn't 1792. I mean, we also had a draft in the 60s, which is more or less the same thing.
 
Hmm, I don't think you really do see my point, which is that this is really about semantics. It's nothing new, radical, or different. What they should have done instead of calling it a mandate and going with the tax penalty was to implement a special health insurance tax in the amount of the current penalty, which would be 100% deductible if you purchased qualifying insurance. No one would argue that that is unconstitutional and it would accomplish exactly the same thing. I'm sure they opted not to go that way because it would have run afoul of the tax pledges that so many Republicans have signed.

I don't have any great fondness for employer-provided coverage either. If we can't have single payer then there should be an insurance exchange that applies to everyone. There should also be a public option. I do not think that people who can afford basic insurance should be allowed to ride free because their failure to purchase insurance drives up insurance costs for you and me. See, that's a problem with a strict libertarian view.

You're appalled at the idea of the government forcing someone to do something, but if the government doesn't act, you are still forced to do something. In this case you are forced to subsidize the health care of people who could afford to pay for it themselves. So at the end of the day we have a choice between two alternatives. Either the government pressures people who can afford insurance to buy insurance, or you and I pay for the health care of people who could afford to buy it themselves. I'll take the former.

But it's NOT the same. Because I would take the later.
 
Car insurance?

It's not to protect you, it's to protect those you HARM driving your car irresponsibly.
 
Car insurance?

It's not to protect you, it's to protect those you HARM driving your car irresponsibly.

Right, just like health insurance is in part to protect those you HARM when you fail to pay your medical bills.
 
Car insurance?

It's not to protect you, it's to protect those you HARM driving your car irresponsibly.

And health insurance preotects you from having to pay for the irresponsibility of others. On this front, there is little difference. It has the added effect of protecting the insured, as does auto insurance btw, but the primary reason for making it mandatory is to protect everyone else from having to pay for your irresponsibility.
 
Hmm, I don't think you really do see my point, which is that this is really about semantics. It's nothing new, radical, or different. What they should have done instead of calling it a mandate and going with the tax penalty was to implement a special health insurance tax in the amount of the current penalty, which would be 100% deductible if you purchased qualifying insurance. No one would argue that that is unconstitutional and it would accomplish exactly the same thing. I'm sure they opted not to go that way because it would have run afoul of the tax pledges that so many Republicans have signed.

I don't have any great fondness for employer-provided coverage either. If we can't have single payer then there should be an insurance exchange that applies to everyone. There should also be a public option. I do not think that people who can afford basic insurance should be allowed to ride free because their failure to purchase insurance drives up insurance costs for you and me. See, that's a problem with a strict libertarian view.

You're appalled at the idea of the government forcing someone to do something, but if the government doesn't act, you are still forced to do something. In this case you are forced to subsidize the health care of people who could afford to pay for it themselves. So at the end of the day we have a choice between two alternatives. Either the government pressures people who can afford insurance to buy insurance, or you and I pay for the health care of people who could afford to buy it themselves. I'll take the former.

Whether or not you hide it in the already stupid tax code, it is still government backed fascism. It would still be unconstitutional. All you are talking about doing is changing when the penalty is enacted. It has nothing to do with the tax pledge. This just tries to paint it as a reward for doing what you are supposed to, instead of spanking you when you don't. I do think people would see through that, too.

Money is fungible. If we don't pay higher medical costs because they got insurance, we pay higher insurance costs because they got sick and someone had to pay. There will be a slightly bigger pool of money because perfectly healthy people who didn't need the insurance to begin with will be paying into the pool with zero benefit to them, but it won't offset the costs of taking on patients with existing conditions who they pay thousands a month for and only get a couple hundred.

Saying I'm simply appalled that the government is forcing me to do something is a case of reducto ad absurdum. I'm appalled that they have given themselves and private companies immeasurable new power and dictated a tremendous change to employer/employee relationships in every other business when simplifying the problem makes a much better answer.
Saying that either the government dictates the purchasing of citizens or we split the lost cost is a false dichotomy. There are other options available, including moving it to free market instead of employment incentives. Hell, even socialized medicine is another option (even though it's not a very good one for the US).

I could get into how government caused our system of fringe benefits with pay freezes and other displays government ineptitude, but I think that might be expanding the point too far.
 
Whether or not you hide it in the already stupid tax code, it is still government backed fascism. It would still be unconstitutional. All you are talking about doing is changing when the penalty is enacted. It has nothing to do with the tax pledge. This just tries to paint it as a reward for doing what you are supposed to, instead of spanking you when you don't. I do think people would see through that, too.

First, it isn't unconstitutional as constituted, and second, it CERTAINLY would not be unconstitutional if it was constructed as a tax incentive, like the hundreds of tax incentives we already have in the tax code. But we can't have anything that looks like a new tax because one side of the aisle has bowed down to an unelected idealogue and shackled themselves to a ridiculous pledge.

Money is fungible. If we don't pay higher medical costs because they got insurance, we pay higher insurance costs because they got sick and someone had to pay. There will be a slightly bigger pool of money because perfectly healthy people who didn't need the insurance to begin with will be paying into the pool with zero benefit to them, but it won't offset the costs of taking on patients with existing conditions who they pay thousands a month for and only get a couple hundred.

You seem not to get the insurance concept. Everyone NEEDS health insurance because anyone can be fall ill at any time, and treatment for any moderately serious condition can bankrupt anyone who isn't very wealthy. Younger people may pay a little more than they should from an actuarial standpoint, but that evens out over time (as they will pay less than they should later in life).

The only way expanding the insurance pool doesn't benefit the already insured is if the government stops providing free medical care for those who don't have insurance. If you are a true libertarian then I'm sure you would support that. And that presents us with another (not false) dichotomy. Either people are forced to buy insurance or pay a relatively small fine and they can receive medical care no matter what, OR people can elect not to buy insurance and if they get very ill, they run through all their money until they run out, at which point they are sent home (or out on the street) to die. I'm sure you're fine with that but I'm not and I suspect most Americans aren't either.

Saying I'm simply appalled that the government is forcing me to do something is a case of reducto ad absurdum.

No it isn't. You might want to brush up on your Latin.

I'm appalled that they have given themselves and private companies immeasurable new power and dictated a tremendous change to employer/employee relationships in every other business when simplifying the problem makes a much better answer.
Saying that either the government dictates the purchasing of citizens or we split the lost cost is a false dichotomy. There are other options available, including moving it to free market instead of employment incentives. Hell, even socialized medicine is another option (even though it's not a very good one for the US).

I could get into how government caused our system of fringe benefits with pay freezes and other displays government ineptitude, but I think that might be expanding the point too far.

I think that it's a gross exaggeration to say that health care reform has given the government "immeasurable new power." Unfortunately the whole thing is quite modest in its scope. It expands coverage, provides most Americans more choice, and generally provides better coverage. A free market approach does not work very well when there is a huge imbalance in bargaining power, access to information, and knowledge. That's a big part of the reason our current system costs twice as much as most other systems.
 
I think that it's a gross exaggeration to say that health care reform has given the government "immeasurable new power."
It's an outlandish lie to claim this law is not a massive intrusion of the federal government into our lives. Every person that had a health plan they enjoyed will have them changed or canceled. Every breathing person in the US will now be forced to buy an insurance plan or be fined. Every person in the country will now be impacted by an unelected group of bureaucrats that will serve on a new federal Death Panel.
 
First, it isn't unconstitutional as constituted, and second, it CERTAINLY would not be unconstitutional if it was constructed as a tax incentive, like the hundreds of tax incentives we already have in the tax code. But we can't have anything that looks like a new tax because one side of the aisle has bowed down to an unelected idealogue and shackled themselves to a ridiculous pledge.

Well, constitutionality is still to be determined, I grant that. Incentive is certainly a misleading term here, however. It's not a gift if you start with the penalty in higher taxes and simply get that removed. It is a punishment if you don't buy a private product. That's fascism, which is not okay in my book.

You seem not to get the insurance concept. Everyone NEEDS health insurance because anyone can be fall ill at any time, and treatment for any moderately serious condition can bankrupt anyone who isn't very wealthy. Younger people may pay a little more than they should from an actuarial standpoint, but that evens out over time (as they will pay less than they should later in life).

The only way expanding the insurance pool doesn't benefit the already insured is if the government stops providing free medical care for those who don't have insurance. If you are a true libertarian then I'm sure you would support that. And that presents us with another (not false) dichotomy. Either people are forced to buy insurance or pay a relatively small fine and they can receive medical care no matter what, OR people can elect not to buy insurance and if they get very ill, they run through all their money until they run out, at which point they are sent home (or out on the street) to die. I'm sure you're fine with that but I'm not and I suspect most Americans aren't either.

As the victim of two heart attacks, I have some knowledge of insurance. My first heart attack came when I was 26 and had no insurance. I was healthy (as in worked out daily healthy). I had no insurance. What I did have was the power to negotiate and the kindness of strangers. A privately funded charity helped with a portion of the bills. On the rest, I negotiated with the hospital, surgeons, and physicians. I paid ~15% of the bills and everyone came out in the positive. Insurance would have been better, but I did find another option.

Your dichotomy, as stated, would be appropriate if it wasn't based on a false premise. I'm a libertarian, but that means wanting the least government we can responsibly have. I'm not for removing health care for those who can't afford it. I am for finding a better option.

No it isn't. You might want to brush up on your Latin.

Reductio ad absurdum translates into "reduction to the absurd". While the general definition as a debate fallacy may not directly apply, you oversimplified my stance to one absurd statement. So, the latin translation does actually favor my statement.

I think that it's a gross exaggeration to say that health care reform has given the government "immeasurable new power." Unfortunately the whole thing is quite modest in its scope. It expands coverage, provides most Americans more choice, and generally provides better coverage. A free market approach does not work very well when there is a huge imbalance in bargaining power, access to information, and knowledge. That's a big part of the reason our current system costs twice as much as most other systems.

Again, there are other options. I stated before that I would rather the government streamlined it into more of true cost/demand issue.

I don't disagree that health care has problems and needs some sort of reform. That goes under the word responsible in my statement above.
 
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