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Thread: Supreme Court to Hear Challenge to Obama Health Care Law

  1. #101
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    Re: Supreme Court to Hear Challenge to Obama Health Care Law

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    How many of those wonderful utopias have the population of the US?

    NEXT!!!


    J-mac

    Right, because we all know that economies of scale make things more expensive.

    NEXT!!!

  2. #102
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    Re: Supreme Court to Hear Challenge to Obama Health Care Law

    Quote Originally Posted by Keridan View Post
    So basically you are saying that doctors and health companies make too much money so our only options are socialism or facism? I don't think so.

    See what I did there? I took your tactic of way oversimplifying a point so it sounds crazy, ignores points, and becomes easier to argue.
    Actually what you did is state the point rather succinctly. And you are mostly correct. Except that the best system is really one where the government sets the pay schedule for private providers, which isn't exactly socialism or fascism.

    I could also say that you want to blame uninsured sick people in one breath and greedy corporations in the next. I could point out several ways and back them up why government is largely responsible for increased pricing, but you aren't interested in actual debate. You have shown that in your provocative replies. I could only expect snide responses and poorly veiled anger in response.
    Generally it's a better strategy to actually make your argument than it is to talk about the argument you *could* make.

    I hope they strike it down, too. But there is a reason they gave up quickly on single-payer. I don't think you'd see that result as quickly as you hope. Also, even setting aside the points against socialized medicine, we aren't ready for an abrupt transition. If it were to pass, it would take at least a decade to move without destroying our current medical system.
    It would be a dramatic transition, but it's been done elsewhere. The best way to do it would be via a public option. Let the private insurers compete against national insurance and may the best man win.

    The reason you didn't get an immediate response is that it's honestly hard to say. Seeing as how they are promised some 30 million new customers and about 25 million of those were voluntarily without insurance, they will probably do quite well for themselves. They will take a hit in the inability to evaluate risk and being forced to take on very sick people, but they will make that up in volume and overall cost of their product.
    That's right, and it's why there has to be a mandate to make the system work.

    Likely they will make tons of money.
    What, are you a socialist or something?

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    Re: Supreme Court to Hear Challenge to Obama Health Care Law

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    How many of those wonderful utopias have the population of the US?

    NEXT!!!


    J-mac
    Well, once again no one sugested utopia, so someone decides to try and divert with a flippant strawman remark. Collor me shocked.

    Anyway, explain why you think population makes a significant difference as to effect how well such a program would work here.


    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Supreme Court to Hear Challenge to Obama Health Care Law

    Quote Originally Posted by Thunder View Post
    why should I pay for the defense of YOUR state? why I should my tax-dollars go to Federal funding of YOUR roads?
    Because...those federal dollars also defend YOUR state....and because YOU use those same roads?
    Quote Originally Posted by calamity View Post
    Reports indicate that everyone knew he was hauling a bunch of guns up there. But, since you brought it up, there's something which should be illegal: guns that breakdown.

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    Re: Supreme Court to Hear Challenge to Obama Health Care Law

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    I'm trying to say should is the wrong word. FACT: You are and will as long as we have to treat people who can't pay. Whine, stomp your feet, ask any questions you want. The fact will be that you will pay for someone else.
    And so, in response to that, you're going to use government force to require people to purchase a privately produce product?

    Ever wonder how many people that are behind this thing have stocks in major insurance corporations?

    Make no mistake, this is going to change LITTLE...the people who are footing the bill for healthcare NOW are STILL going to be footing the bill for health care after this bill...the only REAL change is that a select group of people are going to get very, extremely, ludacrously, filthy, stinking, stupid rich.
    Quote Originally Posted by calamity View Post
    Reports indicate that everyone knew he was hauling a bunch of guns up there. But, since you brought it up, there's something which should be illegal: guns that breakdown.

  6. #106
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    Re: Supreme Court to Hear Challenge to Obama Health Care Law

    Quote Originally Posted by AdamT View Post
    Actually what you did is state the point rather succinctly. And you are mostly correct. Except that the best system is really one where the government sets the pay schedule for private providers, which isn't exactly socialism or fascism.
    Then even if I granted your premise, which I certainly don't, it's still a false dichotomy. It presents only two of many possible options.

    I won't quibble over word choice, due to the fact that fascism and socialism are both terms that have varied definitions.

    Quote Originally Posted by AdamT View Post
    Generally it's a better strategy to actually make your argument than it is to talk about the argument you *could* make.
    This is generally true. However, I was demonstrating why I was getting bored with this debate. My goal was not to convince.

    Quote Originally Posted by AdamT View Post
    It would be a dramatic transition, but it's been done elsewhere. The best way to do it would be via a public option. Let the private insurers compete against national insurance and may the best man win.
    This is based on the assumption that it passes and pulls in part that never made it into the bill, so I'm not going to argue it. Everyone is welcome to their ideals.

    Quote Originally Posted by AdamT View Post
    That's right, and it's why there has to be a mandate to make the system work.
    Yes, a mandate would be necessary to make this new law work. That doesn't make it the right law.

    Quote Originally Posted by AdamT View Post
    What, are you a socialist or something?
    Predicting a profit for companies when the free market is removed further instead of being introduced properly does not a socialist make.
    Last edited by Keridan; 11-19-11 at 01:58 PM.
    Omniscience just sucks without omnipotence!

  7. #107
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    Re: Supreme Court to Hear Challenge to Obama Health Care Law

    I find it so odd that the very same people that decry and denounce the uber wealthy .01 percent in this country as being the foul beasts that keep the everyday man from being able to climb the social ladder, are to a PERSON lining up in defense of, and in support of this bill, and with just a tiny SHRED of common freaking since says this bill is going to create a few more of those .01 percenters, the fast easy way....and it AIN'T gonna be the common working man that gets the bump up.
    Quote Originally Posted by calamity View Post
    Reports indicate that everyone knew he was hauling a bunch of guns up there. But, since you brought it up, there's something which should be illegal: guns that breakdown.

  8. #108
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    Re: Supreme Court to Hear Challenge to Obama Health Care Law

    Quote Originally Posted by KevinKohler View Post
    And so, in response to that, you're going to use government force to require people to purchase a privately produce product?

    Ever wonder how many people that are behind this thing have stocks in major insurance corporations?

    Make no mistake, this is going to change LITTLE...the people who are footing the bill for healthcare NOW are STILL going to be footing the bill for health care after this bill...the only REAL change is that a select group of people are going to get very, extremely, ludacrously, filthy, stinking, stupid rich.
    My first choice is UHC. However, it's not on the table. Second choice would have been the public option. Again, not on the table. You cannot have what people want in the bill without mandating people ahve insurance. We have more than a few disconnects here in this country. People want changes and servaces, but seem to think no method of paying for should be adopted.

    While not perfect by any streach of the imagination, if removed, we will be where we've been for as long as I can remember, no where. No change. No movemnent toward real change. Simply stuck with a very, very poor system. A poor and expensive system that leaves too many with too little access.

    Now, instead of trying to go back to no reform, I've tried to encourage efforts to keep working toward something more effective. If I believed this was someplace to stop, I'd be an idiot.

    As for footing the bill, I'm not sure of exactly who you speak of. But I agree there is nothing we can where some are not paying more than others. Paying for care doesn't go away under any system.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

  9. #109
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    Re: Supreme Court to Hear Challenge to Obama Health Care Law

    I understand that sometimes there is a need to compromise...but I also know that there are few cases were compromise results in and entirely new direction, one that was unentended from the get go, and is wholly destructive for all those involved. It's kinda like not voting for a person simply because you think they have a better chance of "getting the other guy out of office". That kind of mindset quickly leads from the frying pan to the fire. This is one such case. Requiring everyone to purchase health insurance is going to hurt the majority of americans, and help a few get very very very very very very very rich. The people who are footing the bill now....patients who pay higher health care costs at the counter due to hospitals passing the cost of those who can't pay on to those who can....are the SAME people who will be paying the bill in terms of premiums and simple insurance costs. Don't you get it? This is not health care reform...it's not even health INSURANCE reform...all it is is a bill that requires everyone to purchase health insurance. Do you think that everyone out there can afford to buy it, unless the cost is drastically reduced? And what's going to reduce that cost? A grateful insurance company, due to all the new customers is has? Laughable. No, those costs are going to be passed on to the people that CAN afford to pay...same as it is now. What this bill wants me to do is trade my freedom of choice in order to have "official" coverage of people who can't afford it otherwise, and the result will be some filthy stinking rich people get made out of the deal.


    I'll pass.
    Quote Originally Posted by calamity View Post
    Reports indicate that everyone knew he was hauling a bunch of guns up there. But, since you brought it up, there's something which should be illegal: guns that breakdown.

  10. #110
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    Re: Supreme Court to Hear Challenge to Obama Health Care Law

    Quote Originally Posted by KevinKohler View Post
    I understand that sometimes there is a need to compromise...but I also know that there are few cases were compromise results in and entirely new direction, one that was unentended from the get go, and is wholly destructive for all those involved. It's kinda like not voting for a person simply because you think they have a better chance of "getting the other guy out of office". That kind of mindset quickly leads from the frying pan to the fire. This is one such case. Requiring everyone to purchase health insurance is going to hurt the majority of americans, and help a few get very very very very very very very rich. The people who are footing the bill now....patients who pay higher health care costs at the counter due to hospitals passing the cost of those who can't pay on to those who can....are the SAME people who will be paying the bill in terms of premiums and simple insurance costs. Don't you get it? This is not health care reform...it's not even health INSURANCE reform...all it is is a bill that requires everyone to purchase health insurance. Do you think that everyone out there can afford to buy it, unless the cost is drastically reduced? And what's going to reduce that cost? A grateful insurance company, due to all the new customers is has? Laughable. No, those costs are going to be passed on to the people that CAN afford to pay...same as it is now. What this bill wants me to do is trade my freedom of choice in order to have "official" coverage of people who can't afford it otherwise, and the result will be some filthy stinking rich people get made out of the deal.


    I'll pass.
    Radical changes don't happen often. They often require some major stife and conflict. Absent radical change brought about by very painful conflict, the next best thing is compromise that works towards a direction, towards problem solving.

    I'm not sure we can get much worse than we are today without reform. Without reform, insurance costs were and are rising. Without reform, business was and is dropping insurance. Without reform, access was and is less than in coutnries with UHC. And without reform, we have paid more and still do than nearly any other country, and for less access.

    The pain that is needed for radical reform will be hard to come by, especially when we have distractions like PS or the silly celebreity of the month shinning brightly in front of us. We distract easily.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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