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Thread: Ohio voters reject Republican-backed union limits

  1. #61
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    Re: Ohio voters reject Republican-backed union limits

    Because a right can't come from the violation of someone else's rights or the work of another person. This supposed right breaches both. I understand people believe government creates rights, but even if that was true, which its not, it makes no sense to breach rights when you create a right
    How does my right to be in a union hurt your supposed rights?
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    Re: Ohio voters reject Republican-backed union limits

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    In 1941, seventy years ago, the great American filmmaker Frank Capra made MEET JOHN DOE. Its about the Koch Brothers and the tea party. A right wing authoritarian attempts to whip up the common people in a new political movement which would strip those same people of their rights when their dreams of power are achieved. Watch it and observe how eerily it predicted the entire tea party movement and their manipulation by rich authoritarians and extremists.
    Did you just call the Koch Brother and the tea party authoritarian? Care to explain that logic. I'm a bit lost on how that is possible.

    Union rights are a joke and have always been a joke. Hell, unions are a joke and have always been a joke. They have hurt more people in their existence that caused more harmful laws to be passed that hurt poor families, blacks and small business than any other movement. They are nothing but a rash that needs treatment. I'm all unions, but government help in effectiveness is another story and all we have today.

    Saying that though, unions in government makes no sense.

    At the end of the film the authoritarian rightie is exposed and showed up by the common man who no longer will be led by the nose. the last line of the film comes from a hardboiled worker who informs the industrialist that he just got his ass handed to him.
    So basically it was all about the worker and what he wanted with others money. Good to know. Oh that wasn't what his ass handed to him meant? Please explain then.

    There you are, Norton - - the people, try and lick that.
    Interesting. I can't help but laugh that you actually think a vote no matter what it is on actually represents the people. Votes always, always, represent the wolf. That you can bank on.


    The people have spoken in Ohio. Deal with it. Or not. We still won. And what you think or do not think rights are is irrelevant to reality.
    Learn what rights actually are and say that bit of nonsense again.

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    Re: Ohio voters reject Republican-backed union limits

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Stealing money? Notice the rhetoric. Stealing. A negotiated agreement is stealing? I would argue the incompetence of those who negotiated if you think the agreement is that bad.
    It really has nothing to do with incompetence. It has to do with money. If the people at the table are hired by people that get money to get elected they will put someone up that will side with the union. If the elected officials are actually only for the worker and ignore their boss, the taxpayer because they need the money from the employee to get reelected the system is broken and theft is present. Or you could say there is a nice circle jerk going on.

    Pretty easy to understand. The system needs correcting and the only ways is to take away bargaining ability or to take away their ability to fund elections and vote. I realize you don't like either choice, but maybe then you realize why unions and government don't mix. Probably not though.
    Last edited by Henrin; 11-09-11 at 03:56 PM.

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    Re: Ohio voters reject Republican-backed union limits

    Quote Originally Posted by Henrin View Post
    It really has nothing to do with incompetence. It has to do with money. If the people at the table are hired by people that get money to get elected they will put someone up that will side with the union. If the elected officials are actually only for the worker and ignore their boss, the taxpayer because they need the money from the employee to get reelected the system is broken and theft is present. Or you could say there is a nice circle jerk going on.

    Pretty easy to understand. The system needs correcting and the only ways is to take away bargaining ability or to take away their ability to fund elections and vote. I realize you don't like either choice, but maybe then you realize why unions and government don't mix. Probably not though.
    Elected officials work for both union workers and non union workers. Both can vote for them or against them. Both can give money. Business, for example, gives money all the time.

    I don't agree that taking barganing power away from the worker is the only way. We could do more to remove money being given to our politicans, be it from unions or business or any group. Instead make competitence and doing the right thing, bargining for the better deal, the critieria for effective service. We could stop the demonizing and focus on the end product, on the process, and how to best serve all the people.

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    Re: Ohio voters reject Republican-backed union limits

    I've lived in Ohio most of my life and I've never seen anything like this.

    In the last couple of months I've had at least 3 canvassers knock on my door urging me to vote no on issue 2. I've also had at least a dozen phone calls urging me to vote no on issue 2. And that's just when I was home. Who knows how many times they knocked on my door or called my home phone when I wasn't here. And the internet advertizing was everywhere. Almost every time I got on the internet in the last month I've seen banner ads urging me to sign up for early voting, or absentee voting and vote no on issue 2.

    All that stuff is expensive. But it paid off for the bastards. They won.

    It is amazing how propaganda can convince so many people to vote against their own best interests.

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    Re: Ohio voters reject Republican-backed union limits

    The story headline should have read, "Voters agree to allow state employees to protect themselves from voters."
    What are state employees unionizing against?
    The voters.

    You can't make this **** up and so many people support this flavor of big business and corporate cronyism.
    Ideological contradictions abound.
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    Re: Ohio voters reject Republican-backed union limits

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Elected officials work for both union workers and non union workers. Both can vote for them or against them. Both can give money. Business, for example, gives money all the time.

    Well first off that is different part of the debate. That post was only talking about government workers where the employer is the taxpayer and business is not involved. The problem with the public sector workers that belong to a union giving money to elected officials is the influence that money brings with it in the process that affects who they will accept at the table that works at the direct disadvantage of the taxpayer giving them the salary they are bargaining for.

    I don't agree that taking barganing power away from the worker is the only way. We could do more to remove money being given to our politicans, be it from unions or business or any group. Instead make competitence and doing the right thing, bargining for the better deal, the critieria for effective service. We could stop the demonizing and focus on the end product, on the process, and how to best serve all the people.
    Taking the money away was a solution I said. The problem with that is it still has to be connected to voting as they will merely vote for the person that gives them everything they need. Its the same problem with doing favors and subsiding business or even passing things to harm business which causes not only business to try to get out to vote against any more of it but other people to get out to get control of business. Same with any sort of chance for people to get some sort of favor in government. My point is unionization in government directly effects how people vote and has to be connected if taking money out of the process is put on the table.

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    Re: Ohio voters reject Republican-backed union limits

    I really feel sorry for the children of Ohio. These people have chosen to maintain an inefficient money pit of a system.

    Figures are from The Office of Budget and Management Budget summary March 2011

    Let us look at why such proposals were made in the first place. The single largest portion of that states budget is Medicaid (pretty much common in all states). Other things to consider, the Department of Education is getting $11.5 billion, while the Department of Job and Family Services is getting $21.5, almost double education. Some of these programs are Federally mandated and at least partially Federally funded portions of the budget. Some some budget Items are not going to be touched. Therefore, to balance the budget, cuts must be from areas where those creating the budget can make cuts. That is why Police, Fire and Education are primary targets for cuts pretty much in all states.

    Now, Ohio tried to change how these cuts would be implemented. Instead of the tenure/time based system favored by the Union, it would make more sense to cut the least effectual workers, regardless of tenure/time. But it can only be cut using a performance measure if the Unions bargaining is broken otherwise any cuts will be back to tenure/time base. Thus, with the defeat of this measure, the state will now have to retain sometimes less productive employees and cut sometimes more productive employees, this will only lead to decreased efficiency in the system and create greater costs because the state will have to maintain a higher number of employees to make up for the deficiencies of retaining less productive labor that the Unions won't let them shed. This is just another example of the masses choosing their own selfish interest over the longterm health and maintainability of the system.

    So now, this state will probably be forced to raise taxes instead of making necessary cuts to improve efficiency and will probably still end up making cuts.

    The reason I feel sorry for the children of this state is that they will continue to see a decline in the quality and usefulness of their education system as better teachers are cut and those quality teachers that do remain will slowly or rapidly (based upon individual motivations) tire of the effort to put out higher quality when only time instead of performance will see them get raises and greater protection from being cut and the lesser performers get rewarded only because they have been there longer.

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    Re: Ohio voters reject Republican-backed union limits

    Quote Originally Posted by DVSentinel View Post
    I really feel sorry for the children of Ohio. These people have chosen to maintain an inefficient money pit of a system.
    Wrong. The people have rejected one possible solution to a problem. That does not mean they do not support changes.
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    Re: Ohio voters reject Republican-backed union limits

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    The story headline should have read, "Voters agree to allow state employees to protect themselves from voters."
    What are state employees unionizing against?
    The voters.

    .
    The headline should read ...."Ohio voters shoot down property tax increases while voting for union collective bargaining rights which will lead to increased property taxes....these people are seriously dumb"
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