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Thread: Health care law held constitutional in latest appeals court ruling

  1. #131
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    Re: Health care law held constitutional in latest appeals court ruling

    Quote Originally Posted by Sunbelt View Post
    Not unlike trying to use annual income data of wage earners to describe the economic condition of each state.

    No, it isn't. It's what CNBC posted -- a nationally recognized organization. You're but one anonymous forum member from San Francisco: a hotbed of bias & radical liberalism.
    What are you talking about kiddo? CNBC didn't even say what indicators they were measuring that I saw. How can you argue that they were using the right ones?

    Median income is the most important because it shows how much economic success the average guy is actually getting. Looking at things like, for example, GDP growth, can give you highly distorted results. For example, if you have 1,000 people in a city and one of them makes $1 billion, but everybody else makes $0, that would be a destitute third world country, but looking just at GDP you'd assume that they were by far the richest country in the world. Or you have many indicators that basically just equate to "state allows businesses to push their costs off on to the public through externalities". That's basically what "good for business" indicators tend to mean...

    Anyways, if you want to debate this, you would need to actually pick an indicator that you think is better than median income and then we'll have something to debate.

  2. #132
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    Re: Health care law held constitutional in latest appeals court ruling

    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil View Post
    What it tells you is that liberal policy works a lot better than conservative policy economically. The blue states are thriving with their higher taxes and greater social spending while the red states are falling behind with their low taxes and crippling lack of investment in their population. The lesson is that when you don't invest much in keeping your society strong, you undercut your future.
    There are major military and arms manufacturing in the 5 top blue states you listed. Alaska has oil, which is why IT'S up there...Hawaii doesn't really count, as it's economy is based solely on wealthy tourism, Virginia also boasts a decent bit of military spending, Cali can't be mentioned because it's average is thrown off by the movie industry, and Minnesota grows corn, a federal subsidized crop, as well as boasting something like 75% of the nations iron resources. That handles the top ten. Posting average median incomes per state, and claiming that THAT has some bearing on how well that state's policies work, is not a very effective method.
    Quote Originally Posted by calamity View Post
    Reports indicate that everyone knew he was hauling a bunch of guns up there. But, since you brought it up, there's something which should be illegal: guns that breakdown.

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    Re: Health care law held constitutional in latest appeals court ruling

    Quote Originally Posted by KevinKohler View Post
    There are major military and arms manufacturing in the 5 top blue states you listed. Alaska has oil, which is why IT'S up there...Hawaii doesn't really count, as it's economy is based solely on wealthy tourism, Virginia also boasts a decent bit of military spending, Cali can't be mentioned because it's average is thrown off by the movie industry, and Minnesota grows corn, a federal subsidized crop, as well as boasting something like 75% of the nations iron resources. That handles the top ten. Posting average median incomes per state, and claiming that THAT has some bearing on how well that state's policies work, is not a very effective method.
    It's median, not average. Those are different things. Average is misleading because of exactly what you say- a few high income earners can throw it off. Median is the amount the average person makes, not the average amount a person makes. That's why I use median. So, for example, say you have three people. Two of them each make $1 per week and the third makes $1,000 per week, then the average income is $334/week, but the median is $1.

    As for the government spending, not that the biggest net contributors to the federal budget are blue and the biggest withdrawers are red. What that means, to be a net contributor, is that the amount of taxes you send in is more than the amount of federal spending in your state. So, for example, New Jersey leads the pack at 55%. That means that for every dollar in taxes they pay to the federal government, the government spends $0.55 in New Jersey.

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    Re: Health care law held constitutional in latest appeals court ruling

    If you want to look at the economics of each state the best stat available is the misery index. If you average out the blue and red states they come out statistically similar, with the red states having a very slight lead.

    Red: 10.37
    Blue: 10.55

    Interestingly, the "purple" states (states with both republican and democrat representatives) have a significant advantage: 9.88

    Misery Index by State | DataMasher
    You, my brothers and sisters, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the flesh; rather, serve one another humbly in love.For the entire law is fulfilled in keeping this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.”

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    Re: Health care law held constitutional in latest appeals court ruling

    Quote Originally Posted by ksu_aviator View Post
    If you want to look at the economics of each state the best stat available is the misery index. If you average out the blue and red states they come out statistically similar, with the red states having a very slight lead.

    Red: 10.37
    Blue: 10.55

    Interestingly, the "purple" states (states with both republican and democrat representatives) have a significant advantage: 9.88

    Misery Index by State | DataMasher
    That doesn't tell the story, either. Take FL, for example. They got hit, and hit HARD by the recession, because their economy relies on the well being of the rest of the state's economies. And there was that little spill, too...
    Quote Originally Posted by calamity View Post
    Reports indicate that everyone knew he was hauling a bunch of guns up there. But, since you brought it up, there's something which should be illegal: guns that breakdown.

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    Re: Health care law held constitutional in latest appeals court ruling

    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil View Post
    It's median, not average. Those are different things. Average is misleading because of exactly what you say- a few high income earners can throw it off. Median is the amount the average person makes, not the average amount a person makes. That's why I use median. So, for example, say you have three people. Two of them each make $1 per week and the third makes $1,000 per week, then the average income is $334/week, but the median is $1.

    As for the government spending, not that the biggest net contributors to the federal budget are blue and the biggest withdrawers are red. What that means, to be a net contributor, is that the amount of taxes you send in is more than the amount of federal spending in your state. So, for example, New Jersey leads the pack at 55%. That means that for every dollar in taxes they pay to the federal government, the government spends $0.55 in New Jersey.
    OK, then Cali must be doing something right, to have that high of.....OH, I can't continue that thought, because last I looked, Cali is the most broke ass state in the union. Didn't they issue IOUs at tax time a year or two ago, lol? Hardly the best posterchild for effective liberal policy. As for New Jersey and CT leading the pack, this is simply not a true statement. A good 58% of ALL money earned in CT is from the military industrial complex. That's TAX money, from the federal government, getting spent in this state, in addition to whatever aid and federal programs we get. NJ is likely the same, in terms of military arms manufacturing. Those are union factory jobs, and they pay a LOT of people, a LOT of money, keeping these northeastern economies afloat, even during times to economic crisis.
    Quote Originally Posted by calamity View Post
    Reports indicate that everyone knew he was hauling a bunch of guns up there. But, since you brought it up, there's something which should be illegal: guns that breakdown.

  7. #137
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    Re: Health care law held constitutional in latest appeals court ruling

    Quote Originally Posted by KevinKohler View Post
    OK, then Cali must be doing something right, to have that high of.....OH, I can't continue that thought, because last I looked, Cali is the most broke ass state in the union. Didn't they issue IOUs at tax time a year or two ago, lol? Hardly the best posterchild for effective liberal policy.
    You're blurring together how much deficit the state government has and how well the state is doing. It's true that CA has a $25 billion budget deficit. That is because of the damn propositions. Voters have locked in mandatory spending while at the same time forbidding tax increases... It's idiotic. Ultimately we need to undo the propositions.

    But, that has very little to do with how well the state is or isn't doing. $25 billion is just over 1% of CA's GDP. That's nothing. That doesn't change the fact that the state is a massive economic powerhouse. It has led the last two big booms and is on its way to lead the next one.

    Quote Originally Posted by KevinKohler View Post
    As for New Jersey and CT leading the pack, this is simply not a true statement. A good 58% of ALL money earned in CT is from the military industrial complex. That's TAX money, from the federal government, getting spent in this state, in addition to whatever aid and federal programs we get. NJ is likely the same, in terms of military arms manufacturing. Those are union factory jobs, and they pay a LOT of people, a LOT of money, keeping these northeastern economies afloat, even during times to economic crisis.
    Nope, NJ is the largest net contributor to the federal budget and Connecticut is the second biggest one. LESS federal money is spent there per dollar of taxes they pay to the fed than any other states. So your theory seems to be exactly the opposite of what is happening.

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    Re: Health care law held constitutional in latest appeals court ruling

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDemSocialist View Post
    Your right a law made through the legislative process is "treasonous"?
    But wait, how is this treasonous?
    The legisture can't just do whatever they want, it has to be within the limits of the Constitution.
    "He who does not think himself worth saving from poverty and ignorance by his own efforts, will hardly be thought worth the efforts of anybody else." -- Frederick Douglass, Self-Made Men (1872)
    "Fly-over" country voted, and The Donald is now POTUS.

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    Re: Health care law held constitutional in latest appeals court ruling

    Quote Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
    You are quite correct...and I'm not worried too much about this Appeals Court ruling, except for this attitude:

    "The right to be free from federal regulation is not absolute, and yields to the imperative that Congress be free to forge national solutions to national problems, no matter how local -- or seemingly passive -- their individual origins," wrote Judge Laurence Silberman.
    I find this statement to most alarming, coming from a court charged with upholding the Constitution, for this statement negates the fundamental notion that the Constitution is a constraint on government power.
    Why? Judge Silberman is only reiterating what Justice Jackson said concerning congressional implementation of a national health care system, if they so choose to do so.

    "The orderly way to nationalize insurance supervision, if it be desireable, is not by court decision, but through legislation. Congress...if it thinks the time has come to take insurance regulation into the federal system, may formulate and announce the whole scope and effect of its action in advance, fix a future effective date, and avoid all the confusion, surprise, and injustice which will be caused by the action of the Court." - Justice Jackson, dissenting opinion in U.S. v. South-Eastern Underwriters (1944)
    I draw the reader's attention to post #30 of this thread.

    When it's all said and done, I believe the PPACA, aka, "ObamaCare" will be ruled constitutional. It's already been ruled by lower appeals courts that the States don't have standing for two reasons: 1) federal law always trumps state law; and, 2) since the taxing provision of the healthcare reform law has yet to take affect, the States cannot challenge its economic impact on the grounds of financial imposition.

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    Re: Health care law held constitutional in latest appeals court ruling

    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil View Post
    What are you talking about kiddo? CNBC didn't even say what indicators they were measuring that I saw. How can you argue that they were using the right ones?
    What are you talking about, sport? There's a helluva lot more that goes into an economy than personal income. Your list is just one part of a much larger list. CNBC is certainly not the best tv network, but I'm certain they've put more thought into their research than you've put into yours. Now stop defending your idiotic list and just admit that you're wrong.
    Last edited by Sunbelt; 11-15-11 at 11:07 AM.

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