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ACORN Officials Scramble, Firing Workers and Shredding Documents...

No, you don't seem to get it. You can't prove a negative.

You're right...I don't get it. Your presumption 'can't prove a negative' is based on YOU not believing the Fox news story, that it is wrong. This non-belief is based, I guess, on YOUR belief that they are not a reputable information source. But because YOU don't trust them doesn't mean the story is false but merely YOU don't believe it. Further I believe most of the story so why should it be my task to provide evidence to support my belief that it is true OTHER than the original story which is what we are discussing. You could find an article, interview or other that refutes the Fox news story, hopefully from a 'more reputable source'. Why is this something 'you can't do'?
 
You're right...I don't get it. Your presumption 'can't prove a negative' is based on YOU not believing the Fox news story, that it is wrong. This non-belief is based, I guess, on YOUR belief that they are not a reputable information source. But because YOU don't trust them doesn't mean the story is false but merely YOU don't believe it. Further I believe most of the story so why should it be my task to provide evidence to support my belief that it is true OTHER than the original story which is what we are discussing. You could find an article, interview or other that refutes the Fox news story, hopefully from a 'more reputable source'. Why is this something 'you can't do'?

No, you still don't get it. You can't prove a negative. You want NYCC to PROVE that it didn't pay people to protest. How would they even go about that, other than simply denying it, which they've already done? Can you prove that YOU didn't pay the protesters?
 
OK, you win and make a compelling argument. ACORN is DEAD. NYCC is not involved at all with the protest OR paying protestors. They have not been shredding old ACORN data. Whoever the Fox reporter is that furnished this report is a LIAR and should be fired. And OH YEAH, there is insufficient interest in those who have resources AND support community groups to financially support a lawsuit against Fox that based on you compelling argument they would win outright and further a TON of money (boy would that help their efforts).

Further, you would not talk to Fox but you think someone who was allegedly fired would refrain from commenting.

But I don't understand the 'proven a negative thing yet. Can you further expound?
Apparently you've never heard of the First Amendment, you should look it up some time, it part our Constitution. It's meant to protect the free press. There is nothing in the report that is slanderous, so the chances of winning anything are slim to none.

If workers were fired and documents shredded it must have be reported elsewhere, but I see it nowhere.
 
The point is that there is no longer a national organization. ACORN no longer exists. Thus it was a lie to claim that "ACORN officials" did x, y, or z. That's not even debatable.

What's not debatable is that you re not fully aware of the story.

ACORN Officials Scramble, Firing Workers And Shredding Documents, After Exposed As Players Behind Occupy Wall Street Protests | Fox News

The first three paragraphs clearly states the following.

"The former New York office for ACORN, the disbanded community activist group, is playing a key role in the self-proclaimed “leaderless” Occupy Wall Street movement, organizing “guerrilla” protest events and hiring door-to-door canvassers to collect money under the banner of various causes while spending it on protest-related activities, sources tell FoxNews.com.

The former director of New York ACORN, Jon Kest, and his top aides are now busy working at protest events for New York Communities for Change (NYCC). That organization was created in late 2009 when some ACORN offices disbanded and reorganized under new names after undercover video exposes prompted Congress to cut off federal funds.

Former New York office for ACORN, the disbanded community activist group, is playing a key role in 'leaderless' Occupy Wall Street movement, organizing 'guerrilla' protest events and hiring canvassers to collect money for various causes while spending it on protest-related activities, sources tell FoxNews.com.

NYCC’s connection to ACORN isn’t a tenuous one: It works from the former ACORN offices in Brooklyn, uses old ACORN office stationery, employs much of the old ACORN staff and, according to several sources, engages in some of the old organization’s controversial techniques to raise money, interest and awareness for the protests".

Read more: EXCLUSIVE: ACORN Playing Behind Scenes Role In 'Occupy' Movement | Fox News


The fact that the whole story is unsourced casts doubt on the rest of the claims.

They may have undergone a name change but for all intents and purposes it is the same people involved, even using the same offices.

You might be interested to know, by the way, that the Occupy Wall Street movement began in Canada.

Campaigns | Adbusters Culturejammer Headquarters

And did you know that some of these protesters are being paid?
 
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NEWS FLASH!

Ice cream found at former Ben and Jerrys store.

The sign says "Crazy Cones".

But they're not fooling anyone.

They're still selling ice cream.

Sources say cones from the original Ben and Jerrys are being used.

Sources also told Dreyers News that when it was revealed that ice cream was still being sold under a different name, several employees were fired and all records of Ben and Jerrys involvement were shredded.

It has been reported that Cool Cones is paying people to carry signs advertising ice cream.

What are they trying to hide?
 
No, you still don't get it. You can't prove a negative. You want NYCC to PROVE that it didn't pay people to protest. How would they even go about that, other than simply denying it, which they've already done? Can you prove that YOU didn't pay the protesters?

Actually an Audit would show this.
 
No, you still don't get it. You can't prove a negative. You want NYCC to PROVE that it didn't pay people to protest. How would they even go about that, other than simply denying it, which they've already done? Can you prove that YOU didn't pay the protesters?

You’re right again, I still don’t get it. I don’t want NYCC to prove anything. I want YOU to prove YOUR point. Whether I paid the protestors or not is not in question as I am not mentioned in the article.

Further, if someone is accused of murder and merely states ‘I didn’t do it’. It is the prosecutor’s challenge to prove he did. It is the defense’s duty to defend the accused. The defendant’s position of ‘I didn’t do it’ is typically not sufficient defense when the prosecutor’s evidence is provided that SUGGESTS guilt. The defense typically provides some evidence to disprove this evidence and if successful proving a negative, 'I didn’t do it’.
 
YOu don't understand the proving the negative thing? Maybe an example will help; prove that you aren't secretly employed by Fox News.

Or prove that there are NOT three inch high monkeys made of flame who play professional basketball underneath the surface of Uranus.
 
Or prove that there are NOT three inch high monkeys made of flame who play professional basketball underneath the surface of Uranus.

WHY? No one has claimed 'that there are NOT three inch high monkeys made of flame who play professional basketball underneath the surface of Uranus' except you.

Are you any more reputable than Fox News?
 
You’re right again, I still don’t get it. I don’t want NYCC to prove anything. I want YOU to prove YOUR point. Whether I paid the protestors or not is not in question as I am not mentioned in the article.

Further, if someone is accused of murder and merely states ‘I didn’t do it’. It is the prosecutor’s challenge to prove he did. It is the defense’s duty to defend the accused. The defendant’s position of ‘I didn’t do it’ is typically not sufficient defense when the prosecutor’s evidence is provided that SUGGESTS guilt. The defense typically provides some evidence to disprove this evidence and if successful proving a negative, 'I didn’t do it’.

Good analogy. If a prosector's case consisted entirely of hearsay from anonymous sources, the defendant could indeed simply deny the charges (i.e., plead not guilty) and win walking away.

There's a reason for that; hearsay is inherently unreliable and using anonymous sources deprives the accused of the opportunity to confront his accuser, and the fact finder of the ability to assess the accuser's credibility.
 
Good analogy. If a prosector's case consisted entirely of hearsay from anonymous sources, the defendant could indeed simply deny the charges (i.e., plead not guilty) and win walking away.

There's a reason for that; hearsay is inherently unreliable and using anonymous sources deprives the accused of the opportunity to confront his accuser, and the fact finder of the ability to assess the accuser's credibility.

Sorry but your response is too simplistic to be realistic. Persons who are charged are typically not brought to court on hearsay. The arresting officer, district attorney and/or grand jury review cases to verify that the charges are not merely based on 'heresay'. However, many who are charged have used the defense 'I didn't do it' thus prompting them to prove a negative, sometimes successfully which you say is impossible (synomyous with 'can't).
 
Good analogy. If a prosector's case consisted entirely of hearsay from anonymous sources, the defendant could indeed simply deny the charges (i.e., plead not guilty) and win walking away.

There's a reason for that; hearsay is inherently unreliable and using anonymous sources deprives the accused of the opportunity to confront his accuser, and the fact finder of the ability to assess the accuser's credibility.

The interesting thing here is how well the entire dialogue in regards to the OWS movement is being controlled by conservative media.

This one is a great example.

The original concept is "OWS is NOT a grassroots phenomenon".

NYCC is labeled the AFP of the left, a secret ACORN operation. Astroturf for sure.

And even I fell for the misdirection.

OWS has SOME funding.

Not custom-painted bus funding, but some.

"Paying people to protest" sounds a LOT more sinister than "paying people to attend protests on behalf of NYCC".

See the distinction?

It is neither illegal nor inappropriate for employees of NYCC to attend protests. They're a low income advocacy group. Its what they exist to do.

Did AFP pay people to attend town halls to scream at Dem congressfolk?

Don't onow for sure.

What I DO know is they paid for the busses that took them there and the signs they carried while they were there, and the town hall meeting tour was DEFINITELY protest activity.

So AFP paid for protest activity. Just like NYCC.

Degree is another issue. Did either groups activities rise to the level of "astroturf"?

I think AFPs did, but that's based on information gathered over time.

A little early to tell, but the lack of cohesive direction at the beginning and absence of clever logoed printed signage (as seen at many tea party events) casts doubt on the idea. At least where NYCC is concerned.

LSS? Much ado about nothing.
 
Sorry but your response is too simplistic to be realistic. Persons who are charged are typically not brought to court on hearsay. The arresting officer, district attorney and/or grand jury review cases to verify that the charges are not merely based on 'heresay'. However, many who are charged have used the defense 'I didn't do it' thus prompting them to prove a negative, sometimes successfully which you say is impossible (synomyous with 'can't).

That's right, cases are not brought to court on hearsay alone. But Fox News DOES publish stories based on hearsay alone. The mere fact of publication does not make them credible, unless you simply believe everything you read.
 
Here's a question regarding that...


GOOD distinction, by the way...paying people to protest, vs paying people to represent you AT a protest...

But regardless, with they way the OWS sells themself, I would think that this NYCC would almost need to get the permision of the leaders/town hall sorta thing of OWS to attend, since, for god's sake, they have to PAY people to attend for them.

Anytime you pay someone for something like this, the first thought in my head is mercenary.
 
That's right, cases are not brought to court on hearsay alone. But Fox News DOES publish stories based on hearsay alone. [...]
Anonymous hearsay, at that.
 
The mere fact of publication does not make them credible, unless you simply believe everything you read.

No, but does that make the counterpoint true also...you simply don't believe anything you read??? especially if it is from Fox news?
 
IOW, you don't have any valuable to add, except to attack FNC? And you support your statements with a Media Matters article, of all things. :lamo
IOW, you don't have any defense of your OP, except to attack Media Matters, of all things? :doh
 
I hate it when that happens. Looks like someone should be losing their tax exemption.
Why?
confuse.gif
 
Much ado about nothing.
Yes and No, The story at the OP was created by "foxnews.com" not by the Fox News Channel. I don't watch the FNC, but I seriously doubt this story made any of their news programs because the content cannot be verified. This is a web-only story to stoke the conservative blogs out here about the much hated ACORN. It's bogus!!
 
No, but does that make the counterpoint true also...you simply don't believe anything you read??? especially if it is from Fox news?
Fox News has a long history of misinformation, disinformation, and outright lies -- especially when it comes to ACORN. The story in question is a prime example, for the headline itself is a lie -- there are no "ACORN officials" involved. 'Former ACORN officials', perhaps, but that is too intellectually honest for Fox to formulate.

Now this does not make Fox News automatically incorrect as a blanket position, as each issue must be examined on its own merits, but when Fox News presents no source other than itself, or some other proven liar (such as the Breitbart bunch), then the prudent thinker would demand independent verification of their claims before assigning veracity to their story.
 
Yes and No, The story at the OP was created by "foxnews.com" not by the Fox News Channel. I don't watch the FNC, but I seriously doubt this story made any of their news programs because the content cannot be verified. This is a web-only story to stoke the conservative blogs out here about the much hated ACORN. It's bogus!!

It did, but not on their 'news programs' (of which I think there is only 1/day). ALL the 'news opinion programs' ran the story which is typical.
 
[...] I don't watch the FNC [...]
I do, from time to time. It usually only takes about 5 minutes to catch them in a lie, a serious misrepresentation, or a gross abrogation of journalistic integrity.
 
Fox News has a long history of misinformation, disinformation, and outright lies -- especially when it comes to ACORN. The story in question is a prime example, for the headline itself is a lie -- there are no "ACORN officials" involved. 'Former ACORN officials', perhaps, but that is too intellectually honest for Fox to formulate.

If they had stated ‘Ex-ACORN officials involved’ would it be ‘more correct’ not specifically but semantically? As I have stated previously their MAIN interest is ‘selling soap’. Do you think this article would have garnered any attention if it read ‘NYCC officials…’? I mean who would know who NYCC is?

Now this does not make Fox News automatically incorrect as a blanket position, as each issue must be examined on its own merits, but when Fox News presents no source other than itself, or some other proven liar (such as the Breitbart bunch), then the prudent thinker would demand independent verification of their claims before assigning veracity to their story.

Since the ‘right leaning’ news sources are much more limited in the ‘news/opinion’ market I believe it would be difficult to find another source to validate it’s reporting. Why would a ‘left leaning’ produce report that would validate those whose agenda are opposite than yours, Right vs. Left. Isn’t this same scenario played out daily on this forum?
 
Here's a question regarding that...


GOOD distinction, by the way...paying people to protest, vs paying people to represent you AT a protest...

But regardless, with they way the OWS sells themself, I would think that this NYCC would almost need to get the permision of the leaders/town hall sorta thing of OWS to attend, since, for god's sake, they have to PAY people to attend for them.

Anytime you pay someone for something like this, the first thought in my head is mercenary.

I actually agree with you on this.

If they're paying people to clearly advocate for their group I don't really have a.problem with that.

But if they're paying people to simply swell ranks, pretending to be something they are not, that's NOT cool.

And I DO NOT make any claim that the Dems wouldn't indulge in astroturf. I'm quite certain they would.

But the Dems funding a group that wants to strip their corporate sponsorships just doesn't wash.

Politicians glommed onto the tea party with a quickness. Lots of campaign investors support lowering taxes, reducing regulations and stripping government down to property protection and contract enforcement.

It seems counterintuitive to invest in a group that wants you to stop investing in political campaigns and implement policies that are going to limit your ability to harvest megaprofits regardless of the state of the overall economy.

So its unclear who would be astroturfing here. Its NOT going well from a politics perspective. I don't think any politicians have "aligned" themselves with OWS. Careful CYA to avoid alienating potential voters, vague general support, but that's about it.

HOWEVER. Its a Citizens United election. There's a **** ton of anonymous money to throw around on BOTH sides, so I'm not putting ANYTHING past ANYBODY just off-hand.

It just doesn't look to me like OWS is astroturf, AT THIS POINT IN TIME.

But I'm frankly dismayed at the loss of control of the "fringe" elements that I can see with my own eyes.
 
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