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Thread: ACORN Officials Scramble, Firing Workers and Shredding Documents...

  1. #181
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    Re: ACORN Officials Scramble, Firing Workers and Shredding Documents...

    Quote Originally Posted by AdamT View Post
    No, you still don't get it. You can't prove a negative. You want NYCC to PROVE that it didn't pay people to protest. How would they even go about that, other than simply denying it, which they've already done? Can you prove that YOU didn't pay the protesters?
    Actually an Audit would show this.
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  2. #182
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    Re: ACORN Officials Scramble, Firing Workers and Shredding Documents...

    Quote Originally Posted by AdamT View Post
    No, you still don't get it. You can't prove a negative. You want NYCC to PROVE that it didn't pay people to protest. How would they even go about that, other than simply denying it, which they've already done? Can you prove that YOU didn't pay the protesters?
    Youíre right again, I still donít get it. I donít want NYCC to prove anything. I want YOU to prove YOUR point. Whether I paid the protestors or not is not in question as I am not mentioned in the article.

    Further, if someone is accused of murder and merely states ĎI didnít do ití. It is the prosecutorís challenge to prove he did. It is the defenseís duty to defend the accused. The defendantís position of ĎI didnít do ití is typically not sufficient defense when the prosecutorís evidence is provided that SUGGESTS guilt. The defense typically provides some evidence to disprove this evidence and if successful proving a negative, 'I didnít do ití.

  3. #183
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    Re: ACORN Officials Scramble, Firing Workers and Shredding Documents...

    Quote Originally Posted by AdamT View Post
    YOu don't understand the proving the negative thing? Maybe an example will help; prove that you aren't secretly employed by Fox News.
    Or prove that there are NOT three inch high monkeys made of flame who play professional basketball underneath the surface of Uranus.
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  4. #184
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    Re: ACORN Officials Scramble, Firing Workers and Shredding Documents...

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    Or prove that there are NOT three inch high monkeys made of flame who play professional basketball underneath the surface of Uranus.
    WHY? No one has claimed 'that there are NOT three inch high monkeys made of flame who play professional basketball underneath the surface of Uranus' except you.

    Are you any more reputable than Fox News?

  5. #185
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    Re: ACORN Officials Scramble, Firing Workers and Shredding Documents...

    Quote Originally Posted by Dickieboy View Post
    You’re right again, I still don’t get it. I don’t want NYCC to prove anything. I want YOU to prove YOUR point. Whether I paid the protestors or not is not in question as I am not mentioned in the article.

    Further, if someone is accused of murder and merely states ‘I didn’t do it’. It is the prosecutor’s challenge to prove he did. It is the defense’s duty to defend the accused. The defendant’s position of ‘I didn’t do it’ is typically not sufficient defense when the prosecutor’s evidence is provided that SUGGESTS guilt. The defense typically provides some evidence to disprove this evidence and if successful proving a negative, 'I didn’t do it’.
    Good analogy. If a prosector's case consisted entirely of hearsay from anonymous sources, the defendant could indeed simply deny the charges (i.e., plead not guilty) and win walking away.

    There's a reason for that; hearsay is inherently unreliable and using anonymous sources deprives the accused of the opportunity to confront his accuser, and the fact finder of the ability to assess the accuser's credibility.
    "The necessaries of life occasion the great expense of the poor. They find it difficult to get food, and the greater part of their little revenue is spent in getting it. The luxuries and vanities of life occasion the principal expense of the rich, and a magnificent house embellishes and sets off to the best advantage all the other luxuries and vanities which they possess. ... It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion."

    -- Adam Smith

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    Re: ACORN Officials Scramble, Firing Workers and Shredding Documents...

    Quote Originally Posted by AdamT View Post
    Good analogy. If a prosector's case consisted entirely of hearsay from anonymous sources, the defendant could indeed simply deny the charges (i.e., plead not guilty) and win walking away.

    There's a reason for that; hearsay is inherently unreliable and using anonymous sources deprives the accused of the opportunity to confront his accuser, and the fact finder of the ability to assess the accuser's credibility.
    Sorry but your response is too simplistic to be realistic. Persons who are charged are typically not brought to court on hearsay. The arresting officer, district attorney and/or grand jury review cases to verify that the charges are not merely based on 'heresay'. However, many who are charged have used the defense 'I didn't do it' thus prompting them to prove a negative, sometimes successfully which you say is impossible (synomyous with 'can't).

  7. #187
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    Re: ACORN Officials Scramble, Firing Workers and Shredding Documents...

    Quote Originally Posted by pbrauer View Post
    Sorry, but the government is not on Wall Street.
    Then tell that to the OWS folks...
    Quote Originally Posted by calamity View Post
    Reports indicate that everyone knew he was hauling a bunch of guns up there. But, since you brought it up, there's something which should be illegal: guns that breakdown.

  8. #188
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    Re: ACORN Officials Scramble, Firing Workers and Shredding Documents...

    Quote Originally Posted by AdamT View Post
    Good analogy. If a prosector's case consisted entirely of hearsay from anonymous sources, the defendant could indeed simply deny the charges (i.e., plead not guilty) and win walking away.

    There's a reason for that; hearsay is inherently unreliable and using anonymous sources deprives the accused of the opportunity to confront his accuser, and the fact finder of the ability to assess the accuser's credibility.
    The interesting thing here is how well the entire dialogue in regards to the OWS movement is being controlled by conservative media.

    This one is a great example.

    The original concept is "OWS is NOT a grassroots phenomenon".

    NYCC is labeled the AFP of the left, a secret ACORN operation. Astroturf for sure.

    And even I fell for the misdirection.

    OWS has SOME funding.

    Not custom-painted bus funding, but some.

    "Paying people to protest" sounds a LOT more sinister than "paying people to attend protests on behalf of NYCC".

    See the distinction?

    It is neither illegal nor inappropriate for employees of NYCC to attend protests. They're a low income advocacy group. Its what they exist to do.

    Did AFP pay people to attend town halls to scream at Dem congressfolk?

    Don't onow for sure.

    What I DO know is they paid for the busses that took them there and the signs they carried while they were there, and the town hall meeting tour was DEFINITELY protest activity.

    So AFP paid for protest activity. Just like NYCC.

    Degree is another issue. Did either groups activities rise to the level of "astroturf"?

    I think AFPs did, but that's based on information gathered over time.

    A little early to tell, but the lack of cohesive direction at the beginning and absence of clever logoed printed signage (as seen at many tea party events) casts doubt on the idea. At least where NYCC is concerned.

    LSS? Much ado about nothing.

  9. #189
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    Re: ACORN Officials Scramble, Firing Workers and Shredding Documents...

    Quote Originally Posted by Dickieboy View Post
    Sorry but your response is too simplistic to be realistic. Persons who are charged are typically not brought to court on hearsay. The arresting officer, district attorney and/or grand jury review cases to verify that the charges are not merely based on 'heresay'. However, many who are charged have used the defense 'I didn't do it' thus prompting them to prove a negative, sometimes successfully which you say is impossible (synomyous with 'can't).
    That's right, cases are not brought to court on hearsay alone. But Fox News DOES publish stories based on hearsay alone. The mere fact of publication does not make them credible, unless you simply believe everything you read.
    "The necessaries of life occasion the great expense of the poor. They find it difficult to get food, and the greater part of their little revenue is spent in getting it. The luxuries and vanities of life occasion the principal expense of the rich, and a magnificent house embellishes and sets off to the best advantage all the other luxuries and vanities which they possess. ... It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion."

    -- Adam Smith

  10. #190
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    Re: ACORN Officials Scramble, Firing Workers and Shredding Documents...

    Here's a question regarding that...


    GOOD distinction, by the way...paying people to protest, vs paying people to represent you AT a protest...

    But regardless, with they way the OWS sells themself, I would think that this NYCC would almost need to get the permision of the leaders/town hall sorta thing of OWS to attend, since, for god's sake, they have to PAY people to attend for them.

    Anytime you pay someone for something like this, the first thought in my head is mercenary.
    Quote Originally Posted by calamity View Post
    Reports indicate that everyone knew he was hauling a bunch of guns up there. But, since you brought it up, there's something which should be illegal: guns that breakdown.

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