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Thread: Firms to charge smokers & obese more for healthcare

  1. #31
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    Re: Firms to charge smokers & obese more for healthcare

    Quote Originally Posted by Thunder View Post
    car insurance takes into account risks, and those of us who have less risks still pay for the accidents and problems of folks who get into more trouble.

    just like with health insurance.
    Money quote right here:

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    When you start adjusting premiums based on "risk" you no longer have insurance. At that point you're better off getting rid of insurance all together and go with a pay to go system.
    Last edited by StillBallin75; 10-31-11 at 11:12 PM.
    Nobody who wins a war indulges in a bifurcated definition of victory. War is a political act; victory and defeat have meaning only in political terms. A country incapable of achieving its political objectives at an acceptable cost is losing the war, regardless of battlefield events.

    Bifurcating victory (e.g. winning militarily, losing politically) is a useful salve for defeated armies. The "stab in the back" narrative helped take the sting out of failure for German generals after WWI and their American counterparts after Vietnam.

    All the same, it's nonsense. To paraphrase Vince Lombardi, show me a political loser, and I'll show you a loser.
    - Colonel Paul Yingling

  2. #32
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    Re: Firms to charge smokers & obese more for healthcare

    Quote Originally Posted by StillBallin75 View Post
    Ikari's point is that car insurance, as it exists now, doesn't really work the way insurance is supposed to work. Read and try to understand what he's trying to say, he makes good points.
    Despite my inability to grasp humor across the internet, this is exactly the point. Car insurance isn't "insurance". It's fully adjusted for the risks involved and since everyone has it and you realize all those risks; it's more a market price. Which is not insurance. The point of insurance is that if you can aggregate enough people together and POOL risk, you can win against the market. But once it's everyone, once everything is adjusted for risk; it's market not insurance. At that point there is NO POINT in having the insurance system.

    Car insurance...you'll never get out what you put in. And the system is now set up for the proliferation of it. Just like Health Care will be thanks to Obama care. Insurance LOVES when everyone is forced to get insurance.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

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  3. #33
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    Re: Firms to charge smokers & obese more for healthcare

    Quote Originally Posted by Thunder View Post
    auto-insurance factors in all KINDS of risks, such as the location of the owner, his/her age, if he/she drives to work regularly, his/her driving record.

    why is it wrong to also factor in risks when deciding how much a person should pay for health-insurance?
    This. Not only car insurance, but home insurance. Is it in a hurricane area? Wildfire area? Flood plain? Life insurance: How old are you? How healthy? What's your blood pressure? Weight within normal limits? Health history?

    Risk is figured in on health insurance right now. Male or female? How old? Health history? Pre-existing conditions?

    Completely disagree with Ikari. When you factor in risk (which is already done), you spread the risk more favorably so that a 21-year-old perfectly healthy male isn't paying the same premium as a 64-year-old male. Otherwise, 21-year-olds could never afford health insurance.
    The devil whispered in my ear, "You cannot withstand the storm." I whispered back, "I am ​the storm."

  4. #34
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    Re: Firms to charge smokers & obese more for healthcare

    Quote Originally Posted by MaggieD View Post
    Completely disagree with Ikari. When you factor in risk (which is already done), you spread the risk more favorably so that a 21-year-old perfectly healthy male isn't paying the same premium as a 64-year-old male. Otherwise, 21-year-olds could never afford health insurance.
    No...you don't, you do not spread out risk. You consolidate it to match the natural statistics. How is this not obvious? You're just paying market at that point. There's no point in having the system if everyone is just paying market value anyway.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

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    Re: Firms to charge smokers & obese more for healthcare

    Quote Originally Posted by MaggieD View Post
    This. Not only car insurance, but home insurance. Is it in a hurricane area? Wildfire area? Flood plain? Life insurance: How old are you? How healthy? What's your blood pressure? Weight within normal limits? Health history?

    Risk is figured in on health insurance right now. Male or female? How old? Health history? Pre-existing conditions?

    Completely disagree with Ikari. When you factor in risk (which is already done), you spread the risk more favorably so that a 21-year-old perfectly healthy male isn't paying the same premium as a 64-year-old male. Otherwise, 21-year-olds could never afford health insurance.
    I agree with Ikari on this. If we're going to adjust individual's premiums according to risk, we might as well just get rid of insurance altogether. You're not "spreading" risk around by factoring it in.

    In the scenario above, the 21-year-old could simply choose not to buy health insurance at all.
    Last edited by StillBallin75; 10-31-11 at 11:23 PM.
    Nobody who wins a war indulges in a bifurcated definition of victory. War is a political act; victory and defeat have meaning only in political terms. A country incapable of achieving its political objectives at an acceptable cost is losing the war, regardless of battlefield events.

    Bifurcating victory (e.g. winning militarily, losing politically) is a useful salve for defeated armies. The "stab in the back" narrative helped take the sting out of failure for German generals after WWI and their American counterparts after Vietnam.

    All the same, it's nonsense. To paraphrase Vince Lombardi, show me a political loser, and I'll show you a loser.
    - Colonel Paul Yingling

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    Re: Firms to charge smokers & obese more for healthcare

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    No...you don't, you do not spread out risk. You consolidate it to match the natural statistics. How is this not obvious? You're just paying market at that point. There's no point in having the system if everyone is just paying market value anyway.
    The mere fact that you have insurance spreads risk. "Natural statistics" show that, overall, smokers get sick more than nonsmokers. They get lung, mouth, throat, bladder, gum, head and neck cancers more than the population at large. Having them pay a bit more for their insurance only makes sense. How is that not obvious.
    The devil whispered in my ear, "You cannot withstand the storm." I whispered back, "I am ​the storm."

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    Re: Firms to charge smokers & obese more for healthcare

    Quote Originally Posted by MaggieD View Post
    The mere fact that you have insurance spreads risk. "Natural statistics" show that, overall, smokers get sick more than nonsmokers. They get lung, mouth, throat, bladder, gum, head and neck cancers more than the population at large. Having them pay a bit more for their insurance only makes sense. How is that not obvious.
    Maggie, it doesn't make sense because that destroys the whole point of insurance.
    Nobody who wins a war indulges in a bifurcated definition of victory. War is a political act; victory and defeat have meaning only in political terms. A country incapable of achieving its political objectives at an acceptable cost is losing the war, regardless of battlefield events.

    Bifurcating victory (e.g. winning militarily, losing politically) is a useful salve for defeated armies. The "stab in the back" narrative helped take the sting out of failure for German generals after WWI and their American counterparts after Vietnam.

    All the same, it's nonsense. To paraphrase Vince Lombardi, show me a political loser, and I'll show you a loser.
    - Colonel Paul Yingling

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    Re: Firms to charge smokers & obese more for healthcare

    Quote Originally Posted by MaggieD View Post
    The mere fact that you have insurance spreads risk. "Natural statistics" show that, overall, smokers get sick more than nonsmokers. They get lung, mouth, throat, bladder, gum, head and neck cancers more than the population at large. Having them pay a bit more for their insurance only makes sense. How is that not obvious.
    I see nothing wrong with charging people more for health insurance if they refuse to cease very dangerous behavior.

    and yes, if they stop the bad behavior, their premiums go down.

    what could be a better incentive to getting healthier...than more dinero???

  9. #39
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    Re: Firms to charge smokers & obese more for healthcare

    Quote Originally Posted by StillBallin75 View Post
    I agree with Ikari on this. If we're going to adjust individual's premiums according to risk, we might as well just get rid of insurance altogether. You're not "spreading" risk around by factoring it in.

    In the scenario above, the 21-year-old could simply choose not to buy health insurance at all.
    My Blue Cross hospitalization charges about $50 a month more for a smoker. You would discontinue insurance because of that additional premium? And what say you about homes in hurricane areas? Flood plains? Frame home vs brick home. They pay more. You would do away with home insurance? And car insurance? Premium is based on where you live, the crime rate, accident rate, theft statistics. Having people pay more based on risk is absolutely nothing new. It makes perfect sense to me.

    If someone weighs 500#, they should have to pay more for their health insurance than someone who's at his fightin' weight of 175#. In actuality, that 500# person couldn't even buy insurance. BUT BUT BUT if he works for a company that provides GROUP coverage, they have to cover him. So now they're saying, we're going to have to do some upcharging. Don't want the insurance? Don't buy it.
    The devil whispered in my ear, "You cannot withstand the storm." I whispered back, "I am ​the storm."

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    Re: Firms to charge smokers & obese more for healthcare

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    Don't whine when they raise rates for people who skateboard, snowboard, snowski, skydive, rock-climb... or work in energy, construction, chemical factories, or any profession that drives a lot... or owns a sports car or muscle car or or or....
    That is absolutely true.

    Once the government gains control over your health care they gain control over your body and your life style. You'll notice the freedoms removed from your life but the next generation won't and the generation after that will be automatons. The bureaucracy rules.

    Once freedoms are removed by the government it's a real struggle to ever get them back.

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