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Thread: another solyndra, electric car battery maker facing financial hardship

  1. #11
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    Re: another solyndra, electric car battery maker facing financial hardship

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    The article mentions both tax breaks and subsidies as though they are the same thing.

    There is a proven demand for oil and its related products so it's a pretty safe bet for investment.
    If oil has a proven demand and is shown to be profitable (obviously) why does it need help from the government? Tax breaks and subsidies supplied by taxpayer are not investments. Not me nor you nor any other taxpayer will see a dividend check from these oil companies. That money goes straight into oil's lobbying budget.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    In fact private investors are keen to buy shares in oil but few were prepared to invest in the company Obama's wildcatted with other people's money. Why should Barrack Obama, a man with no business experience whatsoever, be allowed to invest billions of dollars in industries in which he know nothing about and has no experience whatsoever?

    Isn't this guy an extreme embarrassment to the United States yet and if not, why not?
    You do realize that it isn't Obama himself who's making the decision to fund this company versus that company, yes? That's a staff member or probably even lower. It doesn't matter if Obama himself toured the facility. Somebody else made the call. THAT guy needs to be tossed out on his ear.

    I realize that the right wing takes great joy in undermining every single thing that Obama does. I understand it's great fun destroying whatever the other side is trying to do. I am 100% certain that if an incoming Republican were to do the same things Obama is now, then any failure would be downplayed by the right and extolled by the left. Same as now, only the roles are reversed. I don't want to take away too much from this partisan politics fun, but I only ask that we stop destroying each other over this one particular topic. I ask on this one thing that people place America's future energy security first, and playground games second.

    I saw a video recently where Ted Turner asked why China has newer more modern airports and high speed rail lines and the US has nothing like it. The reason is, China isn't kidding around. Their government leaders go to work and get things done. American leaders spend all their time slinging mud at each other and achieving absolutely nothing! We've got to get serious about the security of our nation and stop goofing off. Countries like China aren't playing so we shouldn't either.

    The big toodoo people are making over these failures is nothing more than partisan politics trying to undermine each other. The failures are real and the money lost is real, and something certainly needs to done about it. But using these realities to destroy America's future energy security is flat out Treason. Insisting on oil and only oil is like slitting our own throat. It means giving money to the people who support terrorism. Well I'm against terrorism. I wish the right wing and the Obama haters were against it as well. Anyone who undermines new energy development is undermining the entire US, NOT just Obama.
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    Re: another solyndra, electric car battery maker facing financial hardship

    Quote Originally Posted by Deuce View Post
    Right. And when the product is, say, a highway? The materials add a lot to the cost of employing that highway construction worker.
    The point is dividing money spent by number of employees is a ridiculous way of measuring anything.
    Right. And when the product is, say, a highway? The materials add a lot to the cost of employing that highway construction worker.
    The point is dividing money spent by number of employees is a ridiculous way of measuring anything."





    "





    No amount of deregulation can make American workers cheaper than Chinese workers.
    The highway analogy is perfect. Check and see who supplies stone nationwide that becomes asphalt and concrete. It's not small quarries. Martin Marietta is a big player. How 'bout that. Every mile of highway makes them money, so get lots of highway projects funded. So they lobby their Congressman to sell their gravel. The unseen hand of hidden Corporate profit. It happens at every level of business in this country. Big business is on the inside with the profits locked up indirectly. Look at medicine. The cost became the maximums that medical insurance and medicare and other coverages would pay. This increased most medical costs all over the country. HMO's and hospitals and what they would approve to pay became the medical maximums.

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    Re: another solyndra, electric car battery maker facing financial hardship

    people used to yell "get a horse" at the first cars.

    nah, they never caught on. lol

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    Re: another solyndra, electric car battery maker facing financial hardship

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    At one time, not long ago, the Chinese were making even fewer wages and yet the United States was doing very well. In fact wages were lower almost everywhere else in the world and the American economy was doing very well.

    Why were the Americans able to compete then and yet they are unable to compete now? Do you really believe its all a matter of wages?
    Because it's much easier to reach a global market now than it was before. No, it's not only a matter of wages. It's also improved communications and logistics infrastructure, more open trade regulations, and companies realizing that customers have absolutely no regards to where or how their crap gets built, as long as its cheaper. "Buy American" worked in the 1950s. Not in the 2010s.
    He touched her over her bra and underpants, she says, and guided her hand to touch him over his underwear
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    We’ll say what? Something like “nothing happened” ... Yeah, we might say something like that.

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    Re: another solyndra, electric car battery maker facing financial hardship

    Quote Originally Posted by EagleAye View Post
    If oil has a proven demand and is shown to be profitable (obviously) why does it need help from the government? Tax breaks and subsidies supplied by taxpayer are not investments. Not me nor you nor any other taxpayer will see a dividend check from these oil companies. That money goes straight into oil's lobbying budget.
    Why indeed? Although it might depend on what form these tax breaks take. You can see a dividend from these oil companies simply by investing in them.

    You do realize that it isn't Obama himself who's making the decision to fund this company versus that company, yes? That's a staff member or probably even lower. It doesn't matter if Obama himself toured the facility. Somebody else made the call. THAT guy needs to be tossed out on his ear.
    Who authorized a staff member to allow a shaky company to get millions of taxpayer dollars, and who was this staff member? And let's not forget that Barrack Obama used this multi-million dollar gift as a photo op.
    I realize that the right wing takes great joy in undermining every single thing that Obama does.
    It's not just the "right wing". Middle America is turning on him as well, and why not?
    I understand it's great fun destroying whatever the other side is trying to do.
    And what is "the other side" trying to do?
    I am 100% certain that if an incoming Republican were to do the same things Obama is now, then any failure would be downplayed by the right and extolled by the left.
    There is no evidence for this. Recall that the Republicans turned on George Bush for his spending and his ratings went in the tank.
    Same as now, only the roles are reversed. I don't want to take away too much from this partisan politics fun, but I only ask that we stop destroying each other over this one particular topic. I ask on this one thing that people place America's future energy security first, and playground games second.
    I absolutely agree that security comes first but the vast debts are undermining America's security. Barrack Obama no longer has international credibility either.

    I saw a video recently where Ted Turner asked why China has newer more modern airports and high speed rail lines and the US has nothing like it. The reason is, China isn't kidding around. Their government leaders go to work and get things done. American leaders spend all their time slinging mud at each other and achieving absolutely nothing! We've got to get serious about the security of our nation and stop goofing off. Countries like China aren't playing so we shouldn't either.
    Americans are no longer looked upon as a serious people. We'll see what happens after the next election, however, and whether this can be turned around. Unless spending is brought under control the future does not look bright.

    The big toodoo people are making over these failures is nothing more than partisan politics trying to undermine each other. The failures are real and the money lost is real, and something certainly needs to done about it. But using these realities to destroy America's future energy security is flat out Treason. Insisting on oil and only oil is like slitting our own throat. It means giving money to the people who support terrorism. Well I'm against terrorism. I wish the right wing and the Obama haters were against it as well. Anyone who undermines new energy development is undermining the entire US, NOT just Obama.
    If too many Americans are genuinely depending on a left wing government to show them the way of the future then the United States will waste away in the acrimony that we see in te streets today. And I have never heard of any person "insisting on oil and only oil". If you have a link to anyone making such a foolish statement you should link to it. But in fact the private sector is working on alternative energy sources right now and using their own time and money to do it.

    And I have never heard either of anyone "undermining new energy development". Have you? It is unreasonable to have Barrack Obama throwing taxpayer dollars around and accusing others of "treason" when they complain about it.

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    Re: another solyndra, electric car battery maker facing financial hardship

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    At one time, not long ago, the Chinese were making even fewer wages and yet the United States was doing very well. In fact wages were lower almost everywhere else in the world and the American economy was doing very well.

    Why were the Americans able to compete then and yet they are unable to compete now? Do you really believe its all a matter of wages?

    No amount of deregulation can make American workers cheaper than Chinese workers.
    Oh boy. You need about 50 years of global economic history to actually understand that.

    One time, not long ago, Americans were making calls to Bomb Japan because they were taking our jobs.
    One time, not long ago, Americans were calling for stiff tariffs on South Korea because they were taking our jobs.
    One time, not long ago, Americans were calling bloody murder on NAFTA because Canadians and Mexicans were taking our jobs.

    So, one time, not long ago the US was competing (and still is) with a variety of countries. Furthermore, the US is still the leader in manufacturing by volume and dollar value. You are appearing to make the mistake that more jobs = more output. That does not factor in automation. One guy running a highly automated car factory can produce more cars then we could back in the 50s with conveyer belt labor intensive manufacturing. What Americans cannot do is compete on certain industries. This is not new. As Colonists we took textiles and tool construction away from the British. They weren't able to compete. The same thing happens now. You are a fool if you think this process is simply going to stop now because you want it to. Indians took our call centers. China took our textiles. Right now Vietnam is taking China's textiles. This doesn't stop.

    And it's partially a factor of wages. Chinese wages are rising and firms are going South because the cost is too high. Some are even bringing it back here as the cost to transport and deal with quality issues makes it roughly comparable. While there are a whole host of issues, such as how America socialized infrastructure costs which are highly appealing to companies, places like India don't.

    It is true no amount of deregulation can make American workers as cheap. But a rising wealth tide in China can make Chinese workers as expensive as Americans.
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    Re: another solyndra, electric car battery maker facing financial hardship

    Quote Originally Posted by Deuce View Post
    Because it's much easier to reach a global market now than it was before. No, it's not only a matter of wages. It's also improved communications and logistics infrastructure, more open trade regulations, and companies realizing that customers have absolutely no regards to where or how their crap gets built, as long as its cheaper. "Buy American" worked in the 1950s. Not in the 2010s.
    There was always a global market. Transpiration may have taken longer but international trade has been going on for centuries.

    In fact American cars, as one example, were "crap" until the market opened up. Perhaps you heard of "planned obsolescence.

    Americans have become soft and expect immediate entitlements. When they don't get them, which they feel is their birthright, they will turn on each other. We are seeing that now. And as America continues its decline we will just see more of the riots and public mayhem. There will be deaths soon.

    Any talk of balancing a budget or getting spending under control is now considered "right wing", while balancing a budget was once seen as acceptable and something that was thought to be in the general interest. The public schools have been turning out too many undereducated people for the last generation or so and now the results are starting to manifest themselves.

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    Re: another solyndra, electric car battery maker facing financial hardship

    Quote Originally Posted by obvious Child View Post
    Oh boy. You need about 50 years of global economic history to actually understand that.

    One time, not long ago, Americans were making calls to Bomb Japan because they were taking our jobs.
    One time, not long ago, Americans were calling for stiff tariffs on South Korea because they were taking our jobs.
    One time, not long ago, Americans were calling bloody murder on NAFTA because Canadians and Mexicans were taking our jobs.

    So, one time, not long ago the US was competing (and still is) with a variety of countries. Furthermore, the US is still the leader in manufacturing by volume and dollar value. You are appearing to make the mistake that more jobs = more output. That does not factor in automation. One guy running a highly automated car factory can produce more cars then we could back in the 50s with conveyer belt labor intensive manufacturing. What Americans cannot do is compete on certain industries. This is not new. As Colonists we took textiles and tool construction away from the British. They weren't able to compete. The same thing happens now. You are a fool if you think this process is simply going to stop now because you want it to. Indians took our call centers. China took our textiles. Right now Vietnam is taking China's textiles. This doesn't stop.

    And it's partially a factor of wages. Chinese wages are rising and firms are going South because the cost is too high. Some are even bringing it back here as the cost to transport and deal with quality issues makes it roughly comparable. While there are a whole host of issues, such as how America socialized infrastructure costs which are highly appealing to companies, places like India don't.

    It is true no amount of deregulation can make American workers as cheap. But a rising wealth tide in China can make Chinese workers as expensive as Americans.
    You quoted me as saying something I did not say.

  9. #19
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    Re: another solyndra, electric car battery maker facing financial hardship

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    Why indeed? Although it might depend on what form these tax breaks take. You can see a dividend from these oil companies simply by investing in them.
    I should see a dividend check because my tax money was invested in it. No further steps are needed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    Who authorized a staff member to allow a shaky company to get millions of taxpayer dollars, and who was this staff member?
    I don't know, but I would like to throttle him personally.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    And what is "the other side" trying to do?

    There is no evidence for this. Recall that the Republicans turned on George Bush for his spending and his ratings went in the tank.
    What I was referring to is partisan politics. "The other side," is Democrat (if you're Republican) or The Other Side is Republican (if you're Democrat). And there is constant evidence for this. Right now, the vast majority of those thinking Obama's doing a bad job are Republican or at least conservative. When Bush (W) was in office the vast majority thinking he did a bad job were Democrat or at least liberal. This is absolutely consistent. The evidence is massive and can be seen easily even on this site. Doubtless, you provide situations where this is not true, but these examples do not represent the majority of thought.

    Partisan politics is a lousy way to analyze situations and events. Whether people encourage or discourage the activities of our politicians it should be based upon the "merit of the action" not the party a politician belongs to. We hear a lot about the failure of Solydra, but what about the successes? I tried to look that up but can find nothing. Why? Is anyone foolish enough to believe that there were none? People are trying to undermine Obama and prove he's bad by only pointing out the failures. They believe they are only undermining Obama, but what they're doing is undermining the new energy. Obama will leave office eventually. The damage to him is temporary. But alternative energy will be hindered and given a bad rap for the forseeable future. People won't want to invest, support, or start companies because of it. Let me tell you we will need alternative energy very badly in the future. Trying to kill it with all this bad press, just to get at Obama, only serves to damage alternative energy. And by damaging it, people are damaging America's future.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    Americans are no longer looked upon as a serious people. We'll see what happens after the next election, however, and whether this can be turned around. Unless spending is brought under control the future does not look bright.
    We're not seen as serious because we spend so much time fighting each other we aren't coordinated enough to get anything done. A new election will only mean another guy that the opposite side will oppose because of his party, and still nothing will get done.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    If too many Americans are genuinely depending on a left wing government to show them the way of the future then the United States will waste away in the acrimony that we see in te streets today.
    There we go. This is partisan politics. You'll shoot down anything Obama tries because you see him as left wing. You can't imagine he has any good ideas because of his affiliation. When we see a Republican president, the left will fight him on everything because they think he can't have a good idea. Not nearly enough people will analyze the "idea" as opposed to the "party" and we'll be stuck in the quicksand of political detritus while China passes us by.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    And I have never heard of any person "insisting on oil and only oil". If you have a link to anyone making such a foolish statement you should link to it. But in fact the private sector is working on alternative energy sources right now and using their own time and money to do it.

    And I have never heard either of anyone "undermining new energy development". Have you? It is unreasonable to have Barrack Obama throwing taxpayer dollars around and accusing others of "treason" when they complain about it.
    It is constantly happening via bad press. On this site, if anyone posts a positive thread about alternative energy a boatload of folks come around to say it can never work outside the lab, it costs too much, it's a commie plot blah blah blah. Even in this thread you can see where folks pointed out this latest failure proves alternative energy cannot work. Ignoring that this failure is a failure of business management, not the product. People are simply parroting what they read in the press. And there's loads of it in the press. This is "undermining new energy development."
    Last edited by EagleAye; 11-06-11 at 12:16 PM.
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    Re: another solyndra, electric car battery maker facing financial hardship

    Quote Originally Posted by EagleAye View Post
    There we go. This is partisan politics. You'll shoot down anything Obama tries because you see him as left wing. You can't imagine he has any good ideas because of his affiliation. When we see a Republican president, the left will fight him on everything because they think he can't have a good idea. Not nearly enough people will analyze the "idea" as opposed to the "party" and we'll be stuck in the quicksand of political detritus while China passes us by.
    ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by EagleAye View Post
    It is constantly happening via bad press. On this site, if anyone posts a positive thread about alternative energy a boatload of folks come around to say it can never work outside the lab, it costs too much, it's a commie plot blah blah blah. Even in this thread you can see where folks pointed out this latest failure proves alternative energy cannot work. Ignoring that this failure is a failure of business management, not the product. People are simply parroting what they read in the press. And there's loads of it in the press. This is "undermining new energy development."

    this.

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