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Thread: Marine Says Oakland Used Crowd Control Methods That Are Prohibited In War Zones

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    Re: Marine Says Oakland Used Crowd Control Methods That Are Prohibited In War Zones

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    Someone needs to tell our Dear Leader....

    j-mac
    Moderator's Warning:
    Marine Says Oakland Used Crowd Control Methods That Are Prohibited In War Zones"Dear Leader" isn't the topic, nor is his quote related to this thread. This is thread jacking, I suggest you cease it

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    Re: Marine Says Oakland Used Crowd Control Methods That Are Prohibited In War Zones

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    Someone needs to tell our Dear Leader....



    j-mac
    You won't hear me complain. I'd reinstate a lot of the checks and balances, I think the Presidency has usurped well too much power and now wields too much. Congress should be the most powerful branch. In fact through property of controlling money and law it was meant to be (it's also why it was to have the most people). Consolidating power into 1 person is NOT a good idea. The system was meant to be inefficient, slow, and full of infighting. That's how you produce the proper checks.

    For everyone who cries "small government" they must understand the ramifications of calling for such a system. Small government means restricted government, capped government, controlled government. Not in just the things you want government away from, but in all things. Limited in how it can go to war, limited in how it can sustain war, limited in how it can act against its people, limited to how it can interact with the market, etc. The small government mindset does not allow for excusing gross State force against the rights and liberties of the individual. Small government, in fact, would be questioning the use of police force here, the type of police force, whether or not there was actual cause for it or if this level of force was unprovoked. If one is truly small government that is.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

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    Re: Marine Says Oakland Used Crowd Control Methods That Are Prohibited In War Zones

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    has any definitive conclussion even came about that this guy WAS hit by a firearm launched cannister of tear gas, and was doing nothing prior to it?
    The State has to prove that, not the individual. His injuries are consistent with being hit by the canister. The police and State must prove that their response was appropriate and within the constraints placed upon them.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

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    Re: Marine Says Oakland Used Crowd Control Methods That Are Prohibited In War Zones

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    Moderator's Warning:
    Marine Says Oakland Used Crowd Control Methods That Are Prohibited In War Zones"Dear Leader" isn't the topic, nor is his quote related to this thread. This is thread jacking, I suggest you cease it
    Sorry, that wasn't my intent, but our government actions whether spending the tax payer money as a campaign bribe to a core group, or government giving money to pet projects that are headed up by big Presidential supporters are all examples of Crony capitalism, and governmental overreach...Thus tied to the Occupy movement, and should be considered when discussing the subject.

    In the reply, I wasn't trying to argue, as much as make a point that we are a long way from any sort of limit on government.

    j-mac
    Americans are so enamored of equality that they would rather be equal in slavery than unequal in freedom.

    Alexis de Tocqueville

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    Re: Marine Says Oakland Used Crowd Control Methods That Are Prohibited In War Zones

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    The State has to prove that, not the individual. His injuries are consistent with being hit by the canister. The police and State must prove that their response was appropriate and within the constraints placed upon them.
    Why does this seem to me the definition of the accused having to prove their innocence, in that the police that were firing tear gas, has to prove the claim that the protester made against them. Isn't the burden of proof in this country on the accuser?

    j-mac
    Americans are so enamored of equality that they would rather be equal in slavery than unequal in freedom.

    Alexis de Tocqueville

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    Re: Marine Says Oakland Used Crowd Control Methods That Are Prohibited In War Zones

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    The State has to prove that, not the individual.
    Umm, last I checked police officers are still citizens and are still innocent until proven guilty. I don't agree with your seeming implication that people who make claims of government wrong doing somehow should be believed as factually true unless the government proves otherwise.

    The police and State must prove that their response was appropriate and within the constraints placed upon them.
    And here you're making hte assumption that there WAS a response by them that they must prove was appropriate. My issue is I've seen nothing at this point that concludes that is the absolute case.

    As I do with every other instance of a potential crime, I'm going to hold off on making grand accusations and demands for action to be taken until the dust settles enough for some semblance of real facts and definitive answer scome out.

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    Re: Marine Says Oakland Used Crowd Control Methods That Are Prohibited In War Zones

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    Why does this seem to me the definition of the accused having to prove their innocence, in that the police that were firing tear gas, has to prove the claim that the protester made against them. Isn't the burden of proof in this country on the accuser?

    j-mac
    No. Burden of proof is ALWAYS on the State. The State here is the police. They have to demonstrate that their reaction was appropriate and within the constraints placed upon them. The State is the entity which is limited, not the individual. We're not placing the individual cop on trial with possible jail times. We're critiquing the amount of force used by the government against the rights and liberties of the individual. As such the State must PROVE that they were within their rightful power to react the way they did.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

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    Re: Marine Says Oakland Used Crowd Control Methods That Are Prohibited In War Zones

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    And here you're making hte assumption that there WAS a response by them that they must prove was appropriate. My issue is I've seen nothing at this point that concludes that is the absolute case.
    So the State made no response? No action? Then why do we even have this thread. The police obviously stood there and took no action against the people, and thus we have nothing to discuss.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    As I do with every other instance of a potential crime, I'm going to hold off on making grand accusations and demands for action to be taken until the dust settles enough for some semblance of real facts and definitive answer scome out.
    I didn't make accusations. I merely claimed that the State must prove its case. It is the State which is limited, not the People.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

  9. #69
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    Re: Marine Says Oakland Used Crowd Control Methods That Are Prohibited In War Zones

    What a joke. Protesters who are insisting on provocation in their pursuit of gaining public sympathy and support, get injured, and it's a national issue?
    Go protest on a majory highway and see if some of you idiots don't get hit by cars. And then start yelling about highway laws (The marine OP issue), or about how you're gonna sue because it's someone elses fault you got hit while prancing around on a busy street (Ikari wanting it to be some legal issue).

    It's all this type of person though, this OWS mindset, this ignorant masses trying to armchair run the country. Like some Marine trying to say what's appropriate or not rather than the law enforcement officials actually in charge there. Or Ikari trying to question the "use of force", when clearly OWS is consistently clashing with the police for the apparently purpose of generating sympathetic headlines...which appear to backfire because they have no legitimate cause for acting like ass-hats.

    It's like all these college kids and unemployed people saw those middle east protests and thought "hey, we need to do the same!!! Arab Spring!!! Hot damn!! Uh, you live in the U.S. you idiots, not under a ruthless dictator in a 3rd world country. The police are reacting to your violent behavior and illegal protests, not trying to tell you what gods to worship or what you do with your life, etc.
    Last edited by Mach; 10-31-11 at 02:01 PM.

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    Re: Marine Says Oakland Used Crowd Control Methods That Are Prohibited In War Zones

    Quote Originally Posted by Mach View Post
    Or Ikari trying to question the "use of force", when clearly OWS is consistently clashing with the police for the apparently purpose of generating sympathetic headlines...which appear to backfire because they have no legitimate cause for acting like ass-hats.
    Clearly, huh? So you can, beyond a shadow of a doubt, prove this? Can I see this "proof"?
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

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