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Thread: Marine Says Oakland Used Crowd Control Methods That Are Prohibited In War Zones

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    Re: Marine Says Oakland Used Crowd Control Methods That Are Prohibited In War Zones

    Quote Originally Posted by StillBallin75 View Post
    1) I thought there were administrative rules against military personnel participating in political protests while in uniform. Does anyone have any insight on that?
    that is correct. the military is apolitical and while individual members retain most of their rights of free speech - they are heavily mitigated when it comes to connecting their service to their speech.

    at least, while they are active duty. Once you are out (which means if you did 1 tour you are past your IRR time as well), then you're out.

    2) Police are humans just like the rest of us. They get twitchy and nervous, makes mistakes and overreact just like everyone else. It's really a high-stress job, and when you combine that stress with a volatile situation w/ demonstrators, and a lack of experience with regard to riot/crowd control tactics, **** just happens sometimes.
    **** does indeed happen. the law of big numbers always comes through. if you use a non-lethal weapon on a crowd, no matter how comparatively gentle, eventually you will seriously hurt someone. and police are indeed human, and subject to all of our foils. which is why I am proud of them - given the actions of the crowd, they acted with admirable restraint.

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    Re: Marine Says Oakland Used Crowd Control Methods That Are Prohibited In War Zones

    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Jesus Christ! There is something screwed up with America when people start saying that brutality is not brutal enough unless people start dying.
    What's even more screwed up, is that people think that they can break the law and there will be concequences.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: Marine Says Oakland Used Crowd Control Methods That Are Prohibited In War Zones

    Quote Originally Posted by MaggieD View Post
    From your link:
    The Military manual states:
    …have a duty to collect and care for the wounded. Prioritize treatment according to injuries. Make NO treatment distinction based on nationality. All soldiers, enemy or friendly, must be treated the same. [/b]
    Not really germaine to your post's intent, but this is a real surprise. I can pretty much guarantee I'm not going to be treating enemy and friendly the same.

    As to your post, **** happens. Accidents happen. This anonymous source says one aims for range and not at people's heads. So. Range requires an arc. I don't for a New York Minute think this copper aimed at someone's head intentionally. If you think so, then you're into conspiracies. We have got to give "our own" the benefit of the doubt. Period.
    Enemy wounded that have been wounded by American firepower.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: Marine Says Oakland Used Crowd Control Methods That Are Prohibited In War Zones

    Quote Originally Posted by StillBallin75 View Post
    1) I thought there were administrative rules against military personnel participating in political protests while in uniform. Does anyone have any insight on that?

    2) Police are humans just like the rest of us. They get twitchy and nervous, makes mistakes and overreact just like everyone else. It's really a high-stress job, and when you combine that stress with a volatile situation w/ demonstrators, and a lack of experience with regard to riot/crowd control tactics, **** just happens sometimes.
    You're thinking exactly correct
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: Marine Says Oakland Used Crowd Control Methods That Are Prohibited In War Zones

    Quote Originally Posted by Mickey Shane View Post
    The wounded man was 10 feet away. The arc would have had to be twenty feet high.
    He wasn't struck with a direct hit......
    "I condemn the ideology of White Supremacy and Nazism. They are thugs, criminals, and repugnant, and are against what I believe to be "The American Way" "
    Thus my obligatory condemnation of White supremacy will now be in every post, lest I be accused of supporting it because I didn't mention it specifically every time I post.

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    Re: Marine Says Oakland Used Crowd Control Methods That Are Prohibited In War Zones

    I guess I have to do this again in this thread...

    Quote Originally Posted by Article
    Before gas goes into a crowd shield bearers have to be making no progress moving a crowd or crowd must be assaulting the line. Not with sticks and stones but a no bull**** assault.
    I wonder what the manual describes is a "no bull****" assault. Sounds like an opinionated statement. Fact is they were assaulting the line, and no progress was being made.
    3 warnings must be given to the crowd in a manner they can hear that force is about to be used.
    Warnings were issued... and ignored.
    Shield bearers take a knee and CS gas is released in grenade form first to fog out your lines because you have gas masks. You then kick the canisters along in front of your lines.
    Not how FEMA teaches Law Enforcement Agencies across the country strangely enough. And yes, my department is going through that as many of us will have to help with the DNC next year.
    You also have shotguns with beanbags and various less than lethal rounds for your launchers. These are the rules for a WARZONE!!
    Which they had.
    How did a cop who is supposed to have training on his weapon system accidentally SHOOT someone in the head with a 40mm gas canister? Simple. He was aiming at him.
    I watched a very clear video where the camera SHOWED the guy before and after he was injured... no projectile came smacking him directly in the head.... This marine obviously has some bias issues... or was TOLD (by a biased person) that the guy was shot in the head. Regardless.... He is talking out of his ass.
    The person that pulled that trigger has no business being a cop.
    Says the Marine who has no business speaking on the matter.
    He sent that round out with the intention of doing some serious damage to the protestors.
    Again, lack of any knowledge of intent, yet making accusatory statements.
    "I condemn the ideology of White Supremacy and Nazism. They are thugs, criminals, and repugnant, and are against what I believe to be "The American Way" "
    Thus my obligatory condemnation of White supremacy will now be in every post, lest I be accused of supporting it because I didn't mention it specifically every time I post.

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    Re: Marine Says Oakland Used Crowd Control Methods That Are Prohibited In War Zones

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    What's even more screwed up, is that people think that they can break the law and there will be concequences.
    why wouldnt' they? they've never had to face consequences before in their life. they think having to face consequences is mean and unfair - that's what this whole protest is about.

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    Re: Marine Says Oakland Used Crowd Control Methods That Are Prohibited In War Zones

    The footage I have seen shows him on the ground quite close to the police line. The police are standing behind barricades, not trying to advance afaict.

    Iraq War Veteran Suffers Skull Fracture In Occupy Oakland Violence « CBS San Francisco
    I may be wrong.

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    Re: Marine Says Oakland Used Crowd Control Methods That Are Prohibited In War Zones

    Quote Originally Posted by Simon W. Moon View Post
    The footage I have seen shows him on the ground quite close to the police line. The police are standing behind barricades, not trying to advance afaict.

    Iraq War Veteran Suffers Skull Fracture In Occupy Oakland Violence « CBS San Francisco
    Yes, he is on the ground quite close to the police line...

    But if one watches the video I saw that someone posted in the main Oakland Police Raid thread, you can SEE HIM when he falls, and nothing is shot directly at him hitting him.

    As close as he is, if he was hit in the head by a direct shot, his head would explode.

    He was hit by something else, or knocked down and cracked his head.....
    "I condemn the ideology of White Supremacy and Nazism. They are thugs, criminals, and repugnant, and are against what I believe to be "The American Way" "
    Thus my obligatory condemnation of White supremacy will now be in every post, lest I be accused of supporting it because I didn't mention it specifically every time I post.

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    Re: Marine Says Oakland Used Crowd Control Methods That Are Prohibited In War Zones

    Quote Originally Posted by StillBallin75 View Post
    I'm no expert, but was the quote that was mentioned in the OP accurate?
    Quote Originally Posted by Aunt Spiker View Post
    Ok well - he has a point.

    They're not allowed to do it in a warzone to the enemy or foreigners but are allowed to do it at home to our own people . . . what it seems is that our rules and regulations for home-base use are antiquated whereas the rules and regulations that have developed for warzone areas are specifically designed to be overly careful and sensitive as not to harm civilians.
    technically yes, this kind of thing would not happen in a warzone - however, the truth of that charge is a matter of insinuated direction. In a warzone, the ammunition that you carry is live; and human wave attacks are met with grenades that spray shrapnel.

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